18 replies to this topic

[Tikanis]

August 2009 Greece
Young greek lad thinks its hugely funny not only to show just how cruel he can be to an animal but to prove this to his mates by getting one of them to video his cruelty.....................Does this not call for education in schools here to teach children abbout animal respect and care - there is no place for this behaviour and downright cruelty toward a defenceless animal.


http://www.facebook....=...WHq&u=JtBZp

Tikanis

[Retired in Crete]

Firstly, the video was taken in Lesvos, not in Crete! (This is a Cretan tourist forum)

Secondly, according to the video the cat died instantly. Would you rather it slowly starved to death like many do?

How do you feel about Halal and Kosher meat, which is bled to death, and dies much more slowly than the cat in the video?

I can never understand why it is perfectly acceptable to surgically abhort a healthy human fetus, which dies in a dish, yet it is wrong to kill an unwanted cat. Perhaps you could explain this?

John

[David and Glenda]

Of course it's wrong to kill an unwanted cat!
The humane course of action is to try and find a home for it.
Or perhaps you take the view that animal life is cheap?

As for abortions, it's a whole different ball game - there maybe personal or medical reasons for carrying out this act.
There does, however seem to be an alarming 'mistake rectifying' reason behind the younger generation's reasons for aquiring an abortion.

[Retired in Crete]

Thanks for responding D & G.

You state "Of course it's wrong to kill an unwanted cat!" but (to quote your answer to human abortions) "there maybe personal or medical reasons for carrying out this act." How do you know that this is not the case and that they cannot afford the vets fees?

I am not an animal hater. I do not regard animals lives as cheap. For most of my adult life I have owned shotguns and rifles (and still do) and I can honestly say that, apart from rats, I have never shot a living thing. In the UK I received many invitations to go "rough shooting", I declined them all. The shotguns are used to shoot cleys and the rifle to shoot targets and rats. In my adult life I have had two dogs and one cat. I have never knowingly illtreated an animal. I did once hit a cat with my car but I stopped and tried to help it. However it ran off before I could get to it.

The problem that I have is with the actions of so called animal lovers. In the UK I lived in Cambridgeshire, not far from Huntingdon Life Sciences. You may have read about it in the papers. Members of SHAC (stop Huntingdon animal cruelty) targeted employees, followed them home and firebombed their houses and cars. When a supplier to HLS continued to supply them they exhumed his grandmother and told him that he would not get the remains returned untill he stopped supplying them. Several people are now serving prison sentences for this.

I find it hard to understand why animals are considered by some to be of more importance than humans. Hence my question re abortions. I recently met the head of one of the Cretan animal rescue centres who seemed proud to tell me that animals were more important to her than her children. I cannot understand this attitude! Another member of the same charity told me how, using bolt cutters, he had rescued (stolen) a dog with he thought was being illtreated. Why did he not just report the abuse to the authorities who could have been fiorced to take action? As it is, the old owner will just get another dog and the whole thing will start again.

I also have difficulty understanding why someone would go to a foreign country to campaign for animal rights when there is so much to campaign for in the UK, banning halal and kosher meat for example. If Tikanis does not like the Greek animal culture he is perfectly free to move to a country which shares his views. Greek culture is changing but obviously too slowly for him. It will take a whole generation before Greeks stop using poison. It is, currently, the low cost solution to the rat problem.

Thanks for reading this, perhaps you now understand me a little better?

John

[Tim]

Just to put the issue in perspective vis a vis where animal cruelty occurs, I came across this report this morning about youths in Warwickshire! Can't vouch for it's accuracy of course but on the face of it and using Tikanis' approach, our schooling is also falling far short of the mark in respect of appropriate behaviour.
http://www.express.c...ail-off-pet-cat

[sel]

it's the general state of the uk as a whole i think just like why oh why did two 10 year old boys kick an punch a 5 year old girl an spray deodyrant in her face to be caught just as they were trying to light a match to her lil face . . she has a brain tumour to top all that!

also why a group of lads again only young - bout 10 / 11 yrs hung a 7 year old boy - luckily he was rescued by an older lad who scared the lil s**ts off!

it scares me to think whats the uk gonna be like when my lil boy is older - people - children doing this to other children never mind what they do to animals - makes my blood boil!

the uk schooling system, justice system and the uk government are failing everyone no wonder the english are leaving in droves! just as we are - i refuse to pay taxes to a government who are prepared to let loose the likes of baby P's mum with a whole new identity and rehousing and protection and use my money to do it, i don't think so! an then there's the lockerbie bomber . . . .oh don't get me started on that one!!!!!!!!!!!!

but hey god help us if we don't pay our poll tax or car tax eh!

and reeelaxxx

[Tikanis]

Oh dear,
The video was shot in Lesvos...not Crete........and this is a Crete Forum. Isn’t Lesvos and Crete situated in Greece or does this island stand isolated and smug and disassociates itself from other areas of Greece.....?

And then....the old chestnut raises its head again.............When in Rome............syndrome.
Well I’m sorry one and all. I live in Greece and I will not follow in the footsteps or condone those that live here or were born here to commit brutalities to either man woman or beast and stand to one side.
Born in The UK – retired to Crete – see someone kicking hell out of a dog – walk on by – is not for me.
In my book it matters not a jot where you are born or where you choose to live if you respect animals and experience or witness cruelty or abuse, you can do no other than stand up and speak out. I would expect a guy from Pakistan walking the streets of London to act if he witnessed animals cruelty – wouldn’t you? Or do we have now to label animal cruelty in Britain - British animal cruelty to be attended to by the British people – animal cruelty in Greece - Greek animal cruelty to be attended to by Greeks – I cannot even empathise with this attitude I consider it to be utter rubbish.

Where on earth did the pearl of wisdom come from - ‘perhaps they couldn’t afford the vets fees ‘ and ‘unwanted cat’ The cat was owned and loved by a neighbor of this toe rag - it had nothing whatever to do with not being able to afford vets fees.

Then there’s the other adage .......... clean up one’s own back yard...........Strangely my back yard is here in Greece and that is exactly from where I react to blatant abuse.

Many seem to think that I am completely blinkered and unaware that animal cruelty takes place all over the world in exactly the same way as every other injustice cruelty and abuse. It’s an ongoing and sickening problem no matter where the soil is this world that you stand on and I really am sorry that pretty much the only action that I am able to raise here is the so called trump card game that so many enjoy playing and which is only really used to absolve yourselves. Tired old trumped out excuses for your own inaction. I have one for you seeing as you appear to enjoy them so much Stop shooting the messenger when you don’t like the news.

Next chestnut another well worn and wearisome path – the bit about caring more for people than animals I actually consider this remark to be insulting in the extreme because those that chomp this out with tedious repetition have not one clue what I do for people. Let’s just ask what you do for people since you are so condemning of my animal concerns?

Tikanis

[Thalia]

Tikanis, you ask 'how do you react to this'?
My answer I react very bad and full of shame and embarrased.

I have always been animal lover which is not so usual for greeks, and I know that crete have a lot of brutality, this is known a lot, we are well known to hang dogs but so does Kos and lot of other places but not quuite so much.

So firstly the cat in questin was not unwanted he was nice cat in family of cats well fed and neutered and the beast who done this was known to the cats so friendly and not expecting to be treating so bad.

I am reading such rubbish here from "crete expert" make me feel like laughing hehe if I was english I would be embarased because you dont know what you say when you come to crete and then tell a guy like Tikanis he should not be here if he doesnt like what he sees. So you ex pats that do not care what is done to animals, you like to just sit around and pretend? Tikanis does much work for animals and crete needs people like him not idiots who are named by the english 'greekophiles'.

David and Glenda sound normals and they do not interest themselves in abortion and me not in kosher meats, we are talking domestic animal here cats and dogs, you english mans best frend. With such bad attitudes and surprising for english, best you go home to englnd. We need educated people to stay in Greece as we are not so civilised and have worst abuse in all of eu for animals. We dont like the drunken behaviour it is true but we like their money but these drunks do not abuse animal and then they go home back where they belong so no harm done!

[Retired in Crete]

Oh dear, oh dear. I do wish that people (Tikanis & Thalia) would read what I write rather than putting their own interpretation on what they think I say. I am even beginning to wonder if it is my post that they are responding to.

Tikanis said “Born in The UK – retired to Crete – see someone kicking hell out of a dog – walk on by”. Where did this come from? Did I ever even suggest this? I could no more do this than I could ignore a drowning child in the sea!

The suggestion that “British animal cruelty to be attended to by the British people – animal cruelty in Greece - Greek animal cruelty to be attended to by Greeks” is just too stupid to even warrant a reply. Just where do you dream these things up from?

Where did I ever say the adage “clean up ones own backyard”? My backyard is Crete – just as yours is. Again please read what I actually wrote.

Tikanis said “Next chestnut another well worn and wearisome path – the bit about caring more for people than animals”. I actually said “I recently met the head of one of the Cretan animal rescue centres who seemed proud to tell me that animals were more important to her than her children.” This is fact not a chestnut! It was said to me personally in front of witnesses. You are, however, correct in that I do not know what you do for people, just as you have no idea what I do, and have done, for animals.

You also accuse me of being condemning of your animal concerns. This is just not true. I condemn the activities of anyone who breaks the law in the name of animal rights, just as I condemn those who illegally abuse animals.

I can agree completely with your statement “animal cruelty takes place all over the world in exactly the same way as every other injustice cruelty and abuse.” But I cannot accept that I, or others, use this as an excuse to do nothing. We all do our bit in our own way, we just don’t shout it from the rooftops.

Lastly, just be grateful that my original post gave you the opportunity to preach your gospel. Just don’t blame me for all the ills of the world.

John

[Retired in Crete]

Thalia,

So I have “such bad attitudes…..best I go home to England”
Then you obviously approve of “animal lovers” who firebomb people’s houses and dig up the dead? D & G are normal because they “do not interest themselves in abortion”? You believe that people should put animals before their children?

You said “you don’t know what you say when you come to Crete and then tell a guy like Tikanis he should not be here if he doesn’t like what he sees.” I know of two people who have returned to the UK because of the Greek attitude to animals. One was so distressed that they had medical treatment for it. If you get that upset about anything it is in your own interests to leave.

“So you ex pats that do not care what is done to animals, you like to just sit around and pretend?” Please tell me where I said that I did not care about animals? I do care about animals but it is not top of my priorities. I do my bit. Please read what I said. “The problem that I have is with the actions of so called animal lovers.” “I find it hard to understand” etc. At no time did I say I was not sympathetic to fighting animal abuse, I just don’t like some of the illegal methods used.

John

[Gelis]

Picking up posts here and elsewhere it seems that there is a clear divide between those who want to help in the cause of animal welfare here in Crete by working with the local people who are concerned, and those who just think they have a right to lecture. Much good work is being done by Greek people, and helping them in welfare work is much more productive, I feel, and generates more good feeling than any amount of ranting at them will ever achieve.

[Thalia]

John
I think Tikanis "chestnuts" are about speaking on abortion and SHAC which is not what these topic is about.

Cruelty to dairy beasts is vile but is not the same as indivual abuses of cat and dog.

"How do you know that this is not the case and that they cannot afford the vets fees?" This is what I say is some rubbish things is said, so like swinging these animal at grate height til the head smashed is alternatives for treatment of sick cat because owner has no money???

I think you do not read proper or you make different interpritation of what is said, or perhaps just my bad englisi. You make it obvios your feeling for animals to me, - zero. Yes of course I make more important of animal than human, most times humans have voice but animals not. I am saying that you should help and make big fuss about cruelty if you live here insted of accepting what is happenings in Greece. You dont understand why Greece need more Tikinis everywhere!!!

[Retired in Crete]

Thalia

"I think Tikanis "chestnuts" are about speaking on abortion and SHAC which is not what these topic is about."
SHAC is very much about cruelty to animals! You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia...._Animal_Cruelty

"Cruelty to dairy beasts is vile but is not the same as indivual abuses of cat and dog."
Cruelty to dairy beasts is worse because it is condoned by governments and religious groups. The abuse of dogs & cats is already illegal.

""How do you know that this is not the case ..............."
Read the posts! This was my response to D & G's comment justifying human abortions.

"You make it obvios your feeling for animals to me, - zero."
Just not true - I do care.

"Yes of course I make more important of animal than human,"
I think that this is wrong, but this is just my opinion.

"I am saying that you should help and make big fuss about cruelty"
I do help but do not make a big fuss about it.

"You dont understand why Greece need more Tikinis everywhere!!!"
I certainly don't. In another thread Tikanis says he/she stole a dog. Does Greece need more thieves?

Let me make this quite clear.

I WILL NOT SUPPORT ANY PERSON OR CHARITY WHICH COMMITS ILLEGAL ACTS.

To make it doubly clear.
I am currently supporting a new animal charity near my home because they seem reasonable people and do not do anything illegal. The moment they steal any animal or do anything illegal they will lose my support!

This is their website: http://pawscrete.org/ Please send a donation if you can.

John

[Thalia]

I am thinkin it is me, but not, is you John who doesnt read properly.

You are not understanding anythin, - chesnuts like shac are the same as your red hering, things brought into conversations to stay away from real point, ie greek animal abuse!

Talking of shac I am sure you didnt known that Heather and Natasha and friends made over 3000 english pound when they are in jail just for greek animal in January this years.

I can tell you it is not stealing when you save somethink half ded from abusing. You make is sound lik greek arae law abiding, hehe big joke.

Only charity for worthwhile is

Greek Animal Rescue

IAWF is rubbish also GAWF is rubbish!

I alredy spend more than i must on greek saving of animal, so not need another charity thanks.

I giver up, you win, It is hopelss like try to speak to donkey butt or brick walls as you say.
Goodnight.

[Tikanis]

I think you are veering from the topic here.

The comment which you are using in reply to Thalia is mine from another topic..............

If you want to respond to my post concerning the rescue of an animal that’s fine ..............its here.......I Want To Change Things In Crete - Am I Wrong?

[Ton]

You are all talking about the same thing i.e nobody likes cruelty to animals including rats and everyone likes to improve things in Crete, me2. I don't see were this discussion goes to except John's direction(retired in Crete) who agrees with everything said but brings arguments for the shake of discussion.

[Tikanis]

I WILL NOT SUPPORT ANY PERSON OR CHARITY WHO COMMITS ILLEGAL ACTS Retired in Crete post

This is an accurate and true account. It is not rare nor is it isolated, and it happened in Crete.

This concerns a bitch about a year old kept by a man who had the dog tethered out of sight of passersby. The dog was close chained in its own accumulated filth and its owner couldn’t give a toss about its welfare. The attention to this dog’s condition was raised by a concerned Greek neighbour who could see the dog from her back garden. She had been trying to get water to the dog using a hosepipe each time her neighbor went out. The dog was covered in hundreds of ticks, indeed, there were so many that they were literally sucking the remaining life blood from this already seriously malnourished animal.
Approaches were made to the owner by a woman who was expressly polite and calm. (Previous attempts to communicate with this man have been made by the neighbor) The response was a string of abusive language and roughly pushed away......

The situation is reported to the police who are indifferent and no action results Two weeks later and by now the animal is an even worse condition, the case was again reported to the police but still there was no response. The case was reported to the local municipality and although they were persuaded to reluctantly log this in their report book their response was, ‘it’s nothing to do with us you must report it to the police’. There was no action from either the municipality or the police and now after 3 weeks the animal can no longer get to its feet. Meantime approaches are made again to the owner and again at all times they were polite and non offensive this resulted again with abuse and bad language, but hey, he then responds................and declares......’you can buy the dog then you can do what you like with it - the price is 600 euro’...........and he slams the door.

Please tell me what you would now do Retired in Crete?


The legal road has been a road to nowhere you have been met with indifference and have been ignored. You have attempted to speak to the owner and have been verbally abused, you know that the dog in the back garden is suffering from extreme neglect and it will die slowly and painfully eventually....it could take several more weeks........
Do you shrug your shoulders and walk away.........because there are no legal alternatives left?
Just asking
Tikanis

[Pam]

I'm with Ton on this as I'm not sure where this discussion is going. Of course very few people like seeing deliberate cruelty to animals and it's not wrong to want to change things. Some good suggestions have been made on how to go about this and it is evident from the article in Crete Gazette that there is a move to change things.

I believe what RIC is referring to is some of the actions by extreme animal rights campaigners who often end up causing more problems for the animals they are trying to rescue and equally I do not agree with those either.

It is worth remembering that the fact that dogs are kept outside is not necessarily cruel - working dogs on farms were (and probably still are) often kennelled outside in the UK, but they were exercised during the day and fed and watered sufficiently. However, some of the conditions that dogs are kept in in Greece and elsewhere do amount to extreme neglect and it is very difficult to walk by.

What would I have done in Tikanis' postion in the last instance? Probably bought the dog for the 600 euros and then, if it is as ill as described have it humanely put down. The locals would then start talking about me as the mad English lady with more money than sense (and they would probably be right).

By the way Tikanis, it would be nice to know more about you than just the fact that you hate animal cruelty - how long you have lived in Crete and what brought you to the country etc. This forum is about a lot more than a place to crusade for change to the way animals are treated.

Pam

[henryg]

I think what the kid did was wrong without a doubt, if he was going to put the cat down there are more humane ways to do so. The thing is there are evil children all around the world who tend to get misguided ideas on how to spend their time, and this child in the video is probably not a specialty of Greece.

I also agree with John, that there are more important issues like abortion that one could be concerning themselves with..and clearly no matter how you look at it, a worthy human life is infinitely more valuable than a cat's. Again, this doesn't make the kid's action acceptable at all- I'm aggreeing with another way of looking at the whole situation that is perfectly valid.

All the best.