16 replies to this topic

[Tikanis]

I live in Crete in Greece where the ongoing appalling suffering of animals sadly continues unabated, you don’t need to spend one penny – but spare one minute and you CAN help.
There is a lot of effort being made by many people who are all trying desperately hard to help the many cases of cruelty, abuse, abandonment, disease, and poisoning suffered daily by Greek animals.
We are simply asking for Greek MPs to at last act humanly and with compassion for their animals, and set about enforcing their own animal welfare laws.
Greece’s present control of stray animals is by the use of baited poison. There are many cases here of poisoning strays and indeed owned dogs and cats. The poison is insidious it causes extreme pain and results in a prolonged and agonising death for these animals.
This is illegal by their law!!!!!
I am not asking you for donations, there are numerous animal welfare organisations where you can specifically do that and I know that every single penny will help.
I want you to please help maintain ‘pressure’ on this government if we are persistent and refuse to give up on these animals we surely must win justice for them
PLEASE LOOK at CARE 2.com for petitions relating to the plight of Greek animals – and sign them all.
Please visit my petition at http://www.thepetiti...nimal-abuse-NOW
Visit this address and download for free . http://www.care2.com/news/go/1191524
The hard-hitting and very moving song GREEK TRAGEDY, written by Maria Daines and performed by her and guitarist Paul Killington, was inspired by the story of ‘Boney Fingers’, a very thin hunting dog rescued on 25 March in Kavala, northern Greece. Now called BONNIE, the dog made a full recovery and her future is secure.

Please help spread the word and awareness to the plight of animals in Greece, pass this message on to as many people that you can think of your valuable help is appreciated enormously mention too that 'Greek Tragedy' MP3 is available for FREE download
Thank you very much
Tikanis

[Retired in Crete]

To answer the question in the title - Yes I do think that you are wrong!

Your motives may be of the highest order but you have chosen the wrong site to promote your cause. This is a site to promote Greek tourism. You have abused the site owners hospitality by asking readers to sign a petition where people are saying that they will not visit Crete until the situation changes.

Your actions are the equivalent of trying to sell chocolate at a Weightwatchers meeting! In my opinion, you are acting against everything that this site stands for.

Sorry, but you did ask the question.

John

[David and Glenda]

John,
So you're willing to ignore the all too frequent ugly/sometimes needless deaths of animals in order to protect the tourism trade?
Deaths that tourists will see and adversely comment upon, seems a strange logic there?

[Katarina]

Sorry John but I disagree.
It is a fact, and I know several personally, that many people cannot bear to witness animal suffering and for that reason alone have vowed never to come back to Greece.
It is in the interests of tourism that this situation is addressed, and anything that helps to influence both the government and the individuals concerned (many of my Greek friends are also animal lovers, and are keen to change the attitudes of their fellow countrymen too) is worth trying
I am happy to sign the petition, though I have my doubts that it will change anything.
I do believe that things are changing gradually anyway - when I first started visiting Greece, no one kept animals as pets, which is not unusual now - and I have seen for myself that young children are being actively taught to respect animals and the environment in their schools.

And a little bit of chocolate never did anyone any harm either!

And tikanis, for what it's worth it is never wrong to try and change something you feel is wrong

Katarina

[David and Glenda]

John,
You wrote
"You have abused the site owners hospitality by asking readers to sign a petition where people are saying that they will not visit Crete until the situation changes"
Surely it is the Site Owner's responsibility to comment on the validity of the post?

I feel you have taken that out of context in order to denigrate Tikanis' message.
Those comments were personal comments in response to the petition and in no way is promoted in the aims of the petition as posted by Tikanis.
Actually that view of boycotting Greece because of the treatment of animals is not just limited to that petition, you'll find similar statements on various other sites.
Tourists need to be aware that Crete, along with many other Mediteranean countries, can reveal a disturbing site to it.

[Retired in Crete]

Firstly, I think that you have misunderstood what I am saying.

Tikanis has his axe to grind, many other people have different axes, should their causes, however justifiable, be aired on this site?

You think they should? Then the site will be full of posts like:

Don't fly abroad, the carbon footprint of aircraft is destroying the planet. (From the "Greens")

Boycott Crete. Heraklion power station is among the most polluting in the world (From environmentalists)

Boycott Greek food. The excessive use of chemicals in agriculture is harming your health. (From the food lobby)

Don't visit Greece. They do not enforce "Health & Safety laws. (From the health & safety lobby)

Don't drive in Greece. Their accident rate is among the highest in the world. (From the AA?)

As David and Glenda say "Crete, along with many other Mediteranean countries, can reveal a disturbing site to it." Indeed it can, I know because I live here, but that does not mean, in my opinion, that this is the site to air these problems.

John

[David and Glenda]

I hardly think Tikanis is grinding an axe, rather he is making reasonable request for like-minded individuals to make their voices heard.
There is on each keyboard the ability to ignore posts such as these if you don't agree with the sentiments - however to try and denigrate the post and suggesting it has no place on here is tantamount to inciting censorship.
I'm sure readers of this forum are intelligent enough to form their own opinions of its validity or worth and choose whether to follow it up or ignore it.
Rule 6 for this forum states:-
6. Any message which will be considered inappropriate for the "Explore Crete" forums, will be removed by the Administrator or the Moderators without a warning.

As this hasn't happened, then one must assume the site owners are happy to let it live on.

As for your latest post, I hope that was tongue in cheek - are you honestly suggesting this site would be over run with items such as that . I've not seen them raised on any other Crete site.
Actually, that last advice has been aired on a lot of sites and is a cause of concern to tourists from the upper european countries who expect similar driving standards to their own - even more so to the first time UK tourist!

[Retired in Crete]

D & G say "I hardly think Tikanis is grinding an axe,"

So far Tikanis has made 4 posts on this site. They all relate to animal cruelty. He has made the post which started this thread on other forums. He has never, to my knowledge, post anything anywhere on any other subject. If this is not "grinding an axe" please explain what is.

D & G say "There is on each keyboard the ability to ignore posts such as these if you don't agree with the sentiments"

I was not disagreeing with the sentiments. The title asked a question "Am I wrong?" I answered the question because that is what people do on forums. I gave my reasons why I thought Tikanis was wrong. You disagree with my answer, that's fine by me. It would be a dull world if we all agreed on everything.

D & G said "however to try and denigrate the post and suggesting it has no place on here is tantamount to inciting censorship."

Please read my first post again. I said "Your motives may be of the highest order but you have chosen the wrong site to promote your cause". Please explain how this is "tantamout to inciting censorship"?

I will ignore your last paragraph because you directly contradict yourself!

By the way, Tikanis has another post on the "Greek Gazette" board on this site. I have responded and asked a couple of questions, perhaps you could be so kind as to answer my last question there. I really would like an answer.

John

[David and Glenda]

I still disagree with you statement that Tikanis has an axe to grind
Here's a common definition of the phrase
"To have a grievance with someone, especially where one feels the need to seek damaging retribution.

The phrase probably originates from the act of sharpening an axe with a grinding wheel, with the intent (in this definition) to get revenge on someone by maiming or killing them. " Now I'm sure that is not his intention. Again, I say Tikanis does not propose exacting any form of retribution ( although some of the commentators may have that intention with their boycott sentiments).

Tikanis is just trying ( along with many others ) to try and get the Greek Government to take heed of its own laws and enforce them.


You wrote:
"Please read my first post again. I said "Your motives may be of the highest order but you have chosen the wrong site to promote your cause". Please explain how this is "tantamout to inciting censorship"?"
Because you appear to be laying down the law that such posts shouldn't be allowed on here.

Nowhere have you said you agree with the sentiment - in fact on another thread it would appear that you definitely don't agree.

As for my last sentence, I stand by it, Maybe I should have clarified it by stating lots of sites don't recommend driving on Crete. but then again, none of the advice in that respect suggests a 'boycott'

As it would appear that you and I have hi-jacked this thread, I would suggest we hand it back to others to comment.

By the way Tikanis, I did sign the petition!

[Tim]

I'm afraid that I need to challenge one suggestion by David and Glenda, namely that as the posts have not been removed one can assume the site owner and moderators are happy with it. I am a moderator and I have to say I have been troubled by these postings and have come close to removing them.
I do not condone animal cruelty though frankly there are plenty of other things that worry me more but that is a personal view. Also I have never been really comfortable with immigrants telling locals how to conduct themselves - wherever they may be- though I accept that there may be just cause some times in which case it should be done diplomatically.
My initial reaction was that Tikanis was abusing the facility. As far as I can see he hasn't contributed much before, one comment on another thread I think, and may be seen as just using the forum as a soapbox for his own personal views. There may not be anything wrong with that as such though, if linked to a petition that may be seen as threatening tourism in Crete, this may be the wrong place for it. It did trouble me a little that he has had two bites at the cherry.
The postings have probably made me think more than any other as to whether they are appropriate for this site (note I mean as for this site not as postings to generate discussion on a forum in general). For the moment I won't delete the thread but will just see how it runs. Yannis may feel differently and although he will abide by any decision made on his behalf, being a Cretan may make a difference as to how he views this post.
I have no wish to censor material for the sake of it, and certainly I wouldn't remove a thread just because I may disagree with it. However one of the things that distinguishes this site from some others is that the users tend to show respect for one another and to our host. Anything that might lead to the loss of that atmosphere is on dodgy ground I think.
It will be interesting to see if Tikanis contributes more to the thread, or justs posts and runs! I'd like to know what, if anything, Tikanis might have done elsewhere about the animal abuse that goes on in the UK and elsewhere- it is not only Crete that has a problem.

[Tikanis]

Hello everyone,

I haven’t cut and run but have had other stuff to attend to and haven’t been able to get back until tonight so I apologies for that..........

I am literally on a switchback ride. I have answered some points admittedly without much restraint but with regard to this post I want to say how much I appreciate all of your responses and I think that yours Tim is well thought out and fair, I can ask for no more than that.

I join most forums for one reason I have a topic to raise or see a topic to participate in and of course without question my heart is in animal welfare their care and their well-being, so I think it’s no surprise that I raise and defend this issue.
I do not think that animals here in general are treated abysmally, most stock animals owned by villagers who are my friends are well cared for and I myself help out from time to time injecting and administering worming medications.

Some folk on this forum have accused me of having an axe to grind well the definition of this is as D & G explained and it has nothing to do with my motivations or interests . I am a peace loving person I love Greece and have a deep sense of belonging but I have to speak out when I see animals being stoned and indeed when I see animals feeding on toxic waste on open rubbish dumps.................the experiences learned so hard in Britain come to mind.
I care greatly about people I help the locals wherever I can and I never ram my opinions down the throats of Greek people. I did however make it very clear from the first steps I took into this village that I would never tolerate animal cruelty but that I will respect the traditional Greek way of life and I have never wavered from this. My stance on this issue has always been respected. I have never rushed off to inform the police or make complaints. I have always approached sensitive subjects with tact and respect on a one to one basis, but the most effective methods are by personal example.

I will explain something here. I have never received any animosity from Greek people – and I have often asked myself why – I have come to the conclusion that Greek people also hate animal cruelty and abuse. The bitterest remarks have always come from ex pats that seem to me to get Greek traditional life mixed up with animal cruelty. This has never been my experience. Greek people don’t embrace animal cruelty as part of their culture or tradition.

I actually had a brass plaque presented to me from the people of my village by the president This is engraved and I am extremely proud of it. It thanks me for choosing to live here and for respecting Greek traditional life. Perhaps my friends in this village and beyond understand and appreciate what I am about more so than ex pats who retire here for the peaceful life to sit in the sun and not involve themselves with these upsetting things................

I don’t think that I rant.........and indeed I really can talk about other things, but my strongest motivation is admittedly animal welfare, I am not apologizing for that, others have different specialist interests for some its gardening, others cars and still others the various attributes of different suntan lotions.........
Each to his own and I happily tolerate diversity. It makes this world go round.

To round off and for the record, I have never promoted boycotting Greece, but I do believe in telling the truth and if the truth puts folk off from coming to Greece for their holidays it’s sad but its better that they know. I know many people who have dreamed of a wonderful holiday and their dreams have been smashed and shattered following awful experiences here. For every tourist that turns away the people of Greece who play no part in cruelty or abuse, suffer. For every tourist that turns away the animals here receive less attention and help.............

Many animal carers would react to this statement and I understand where they come from, years of battering away banging ones head up a brick wall has its repercussions, more extreme more active resistance is sought. Someone mentioned that rather than freeing a tethered dog the animal carer should have notified the authorities. Sir, if you have any experience of the municipalities you would know that this would have been as much use as whistling in the wind................
Tikanis

[Retired in Crete]

Can I just say what an excellent post!

Well thought out and no "ranting and raving". You sound sane and sensible, why wasn't your first post couched in the same terms? Had it been my responses may have been different.

Only one comment. You did say:
"Someone mentioned that rather than freeing a tethered dog the animal carer should have notified the authorities. Sir, if you have any experience of the municipalities you would know that this would have been as much use as whistling in the wind......"

As you obviously condone trespass and theft, just how far would you go to rescue an abused animal? Had it been you freeing (stealing) the dog what would you have done if the owner had returned and caught you in the act?

Just asking

John

[Tikanis]

I did not say that I condoned trespass and theft, what I did was to comment on the advice to contact the municipality. Municipalities, in many instances don’t have the infrastructure in place (although required by Greek Law) to cope with any animal situation. Most often the municipality will point you in the direction of the police station. If you can get a report logged it is an achievement if you can get a response it’s a miracle.

The question therefore is what’s the alternative?

Well I think it involves using common sense. I can tell you some of my personal experiences for what it’s worth but action very much depends on the circumstances. I believe that if you feel that the only option left is to break the law then of course you have to be prepared to face up to the possible consequences.

I have rescued quite a few animals pretty well all sorts from a huge pig to dogs, cats, young goats and sheep, newborn goats and birthing mothers, all have involved illegal trespass, some have involved neglect most have resulted in gifts on my doorstep the next day.

I am guilty of stealing a dog that was in such poor condition it could barely stand caused through systematic starving (much the same condition as the dog shown on my petition) I faced up to the owner and I explained why I was taking the dog and where I was taking the dog and the result of that was shamefaced acquiescence. I don’t think that such cases often result in downright opposition and certainly not in threats to prosecute. These types of animal abusers are bullies and cowards and the last thing that they want is their dirty linen washed in public, let’s face it not many people are going to claim ownership of an abused and badly neglected animal.

Strangely enough I committed my worst felony during the summer in the UK when I openly admit to causing criminal damage. No time to call the police or the RSPCA - I broke into a parked car after borrowing a crowbar from a garage. I was just able to save the life of a dog that had been shut inside left with no windows open and the car parked in full sun. I had the dog on the ground dousing it with water when the owner returned....................his car was a wreck. The interior was totally shredded, headlining, seats everything torn to ribbons, the door lock broken and the door panel dented. The owner threw his arms around be and wept with gratitude because I had got his dog out in time.

And to finish on a happy note, but again this involved trespass and almost stealing......

This concerns a huge pig.................tethered by its neck with thick rope which had cut and rubbed deeply into its flesh. The wound was poisonous and gaping and full of flies. I went home phoned a neighbour, asked her to phone the owner of the pig and to tell him to come to his pig immediately it was in trouble. I picked up a sharp knife and hurried back to the pig and carefully cut the rope.
Once free the pig took off up the mountain track and it was only at that point that a fleeting thought crossed my mind – whoops this is going to cost.........I yelled after the disappearing pig, ella, ella and to my complete and utter amazement the pig stopped and turned and came back to me.........I led it to a small church yard took it inside closed the gate and sat on the wall until the pigs owner arrived some 45 minutes later.
I didn’t need to explain why I had cut the animal free it was obvious and the owner was very shamefaced. It isn’t possible that he hadn’t seen the large wound. He had simply chosen to ignore it. News travels fast and people in the village gave him some stick as he passed them leading his pig. He was literally shamed into response. The wound was treated and the pig re homed in a compound which did not require it to be tethered................................
Perfect solution.

Tikanis

[Granita To Go]

 picture211.jpg   14.16KB   4 downloads
Hello! I want to adopt every animal I see. That's why I want to find a nice little farm with an orchard. Unfortunately my husband, the city boy, thinks I'm a bit off my rocker! I understand your tender feelings for animals, they too are beings with souls after all.

I recommend (in Greece, anyway and here in Chania) working with the veterinarians in your community. They love animals and they like to have support as they attempt to help the animals in the community.

The identification chip has really been a huge relief to both pet owners and vets. When you rescue an animal from the street or dire straights a veterinarian will be able to find the ID on their integrated data sheet for the whole country or learn that, perhaps, the animal has no ID chip.

Vets are the first place to go and the best people to coordinate animal support actions. When my older daughter moved to Athens, one of the first things she did was find the first vets office in case she found a lost dog.

Vets are people, too, so take the time to meet a few and find one with whom you can work with easily.

Many times self proclaimed animal saviors from foreign countries have perpetuated hunger and abuse to animals while advertising that their actions were kind. Like in any project - watch out for charlatans.

In Greece often neighbors get together to pay vet fees to make sure wandering dogs have had the proper vaccinations.

No easy answers but many people have the same intent for happy, healthy animals so there is plenty of hope.
Granita To Go

(Generally in any neighborhood around the world, including Greek neighborhoods, it is best to approach a finding a solution to a problem as a community project.
So saying to a Greek, "You should do this, Or what doesn't Greece to this, etc." isn't going to help a situation.
Greeks know more about their own neighborhoods and the problems therein. Someone might be well advised to start a conversation by "What would you advise me to do about a problem I'm having with or . . . a situation I would like to help improve.")

[Tikanis]

Words of wisdom Granita to Go.

I have received a service second to none for my animals from a very kind efficient and generous vet based in Rethymno. Over the Christmas and New year 2008/2009 4 of our cats were poisoned there was also my Greek friends cat and another neighbours cat affected.

I went back and forth to Rethymno for 10 consecutive days over that period and our vet met me at his surgery every day to give vital fluid treatment and vitamin K injections to the 2 cats which survived.

He visited the village where he was born during the New Year celebrations and then traveled himself 50 miles back to Rethymno to meet up with me. On one of the days the heavens opened as we were leaving the surgery and he proudly presented me with 2 free umbrellas.
I cannot praise this man highly enough, an excellent vet with a big and generous heart. It wouldn't be prudent to advertise his practice here but if anyone out there wants the contact details of a first class vet please contact me by email.
Tikanis

[henryg]

While addmittedly it's not a good idea to want to boycot tourism to Crete and Greece, I think you're right in that something needs to happen here. There is no benefit to the tourism industry to have sick and mistreated animals not being cared for .. where visitors would see this happening and their own country's methods of handling animals differs significantly they're surely going to notice and talk negatively about it.. and this could be even eventually be to the peril of those who don't care too much.

Just my thoughts..

[Wim]

Some animals do fight back



If you look carefully you'll even see John....



Note by Yannis: How to add a YouTube video into your post: http://members.explo...?showtopic=2617