29 replies to this topic

[Wim]

The WWF (World Wildlife Fund) has made sustainable energy one of their objectives.

For the members who live in Crete and the ones who are intending to I'll give here the link to inform you about the program WWF has in mind for Crete.

I wonder what opinion you have about sustainable energy in this form and how/if it would/could pollute Crete's horizon.

[Emma1310]

That seems a lot of words to say not very much at all.

The Greek attitude to environmental protection always confuses me. They are excellent at using solar energy and preserving ancient archaeological sites. I've seen some protected sites for flora and fauna and there appears to be a concerted effort to ensure reforestation following the fires on the Peloponese.

However, they don't seem to look after the area right on their doorstep. I've not seen any evidence of recycling and rubbish is often dumped with little concern for the environment. Yet newspaper reports would have you believe there is a huge concern for climate change.



I hope this project will produce some real change and protect the fragile environment. As for wind turbines, I don't have a problem with them provided they are sensitively placed. Let's face it, if we don't start using renewable energy sources, once fossil fuels run out, the alternative view is of a nuclear reactor.

[Retired in Crete]

What on earth is the World Wildlife Fund doing trying to promote Sustainable Energy Communities?

I thought that they were set up to save wildlife. Am I missing something? Do turtles & dolphins need electricity? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

They should stick to their declared objectives and stop trying to climb aboard every bandwagon which passes. The provision of energy, sustainable or not, is the duty and obligation of governments and nothing to do with wildlife charities.

As for me, I am doing my bit to preserve wildlife - I have just put an octopus in my freezer!

John

[Emma1310]

I'm guessing WWf are involved because wildlife and environment are inextricably linked.


For example, excessive use of fossil fuels releases CO2 into atmosphere, raises average temperatures, melts the ice-caps, polar bears have nowhere to live so they all swim south to feast on octopods.

yes the provision of energy is the responsibilty of governments but they are lobbied by oil and gas companies in an effort to protect and further their interests, so why shouldn't wildlife or environmental charities do the same? Let's face it, governments have more than enough to deal with in the here and now, never mind trying to manipulate the future. It makes more sense that those with the required knowledge perform some of those duties on behalf of an over-stretched government.


PS: octopus is nice in salad with a garlic dressing.

[yannis_s]

I've not seen any evidence of recycling and rubbish is often dumped with little concern for the environment

Dear Emma,
I am sure we can do a lot more for the protection of the environment in Greece, but you are wrong about the non-existence of recycling in Greece. There are active recycling programs in all Greek cities, and I have seen recycling bins in small towns like Koutouloufari.

[Emma1310]

That's good to know Yannis. Admittedly, as a hoilday maker, I don't suppose I would see much evidence of recycling. I'm just used to seeing recycling bins everywhere in the UK. They even have them in some town centres instead of generic rubbish bins.

Does Crete manage it's own recycling, or do they have to ship off-island? I know some of the Channel Islands and Scilly Isles have had the problem of being too small to have their own recycling plants but the cost of shipping rubbish elsewhere is prohibitive.

[Assim]

Its not all good news. We can put stuff in the bins , but that doesn't mean it doesn't still end up on our overfull landfills

A number of Greece’s recycling programs have produced poor results due to a lack of proper planning and coordination by authorities.
Of the 1.05 million tons of rubbish produced every year, only 230,000 tons are recycled.
Industry sources blame a lack of financial incentives to municipalities to help reduce the amount of waste being dumped in landfills.
Athens Mayor Nikitas Kaklamanis has announced that his municipality intends to set up a company to oversee the recycling of household waste more efficiently.
Sources also pointed out, however, that there have been higher rates of success in recycling programs relating to batteries, electrical appliances and car tyres.

[Emma1310]

yeah, bet that's because the EU will slap their wrists if they don't recycle dangerous stuff properly.

Did you see that report recently about polluted water in Northern greece and how the municipalities still haven't built water treatment plants?

[Henry Hooray]

From today's Guardian: "The RSPB [Royal Society for the Protection of Birds] today called for urgent action to cut greenhouse gas emissions to avoid a 'calamitous' impact on birds." The interdependence of the inhabitants of this planet is certainly becoming clearer.
Click here for the article

[Retired in Crete]

I have just read the RSPB article and am now totally confused!

They say that the UK could lose 26 different birds but later on say that they could gain 33. I would have thought that this gain of 7 different birds was good news for them, certainly not a calamity!

The lost species will not die out, they will simply move elswhere to a climate more suitable for them. Just like I did!

Animals, and man, have moved around the planet and relocated since time began. Some have indeed died out. It is called evolution, something I am grateful for as I have no wish to find a dinosaur in my garden.

John

[Wim]

Get off your lazy chair John and read (others too) the link where I started this topic with

That was about "Renewable Energy Technologies in Rural Insular Areas" and that is where this discussion was meant for. Neither about birds nor dino's. I understand why some favour the first and others the latter but life goes on and so does the energy problem. BTW what makes you think homo sapiens is not part of the "wild life"? Have a cloth look around you on the beach!

For those who can't find the link (its blue) a summary.

"Summary
Communities in insular and ecologically sensitive areas face many challenges, especially related to continuously increasing energy demand that the currently installed energy systems are unable to cover. Therefore it is very important to enhance the development of Sustainable Energy Communities (SECs) in these areas, so that local communities identify and implement long-term sustainable solutions for their energy supply, through the promotion of renewable energy sources and energy efficiency measures."

Water treatment plants can profit by this. You can even have them produce hydrogen. And so would consequently "the whole of the wild life bunch" benefit by new energy technologies.

[Assim]

Most countries offer good tax breaks or grants to encourage people to look at renewable energy. I was looking at photovoltaic panels. I estimated I would need about €20,000 to be self sufficient with them. Needles to say I can't afford to do that. So I looked at grants. For a domestic installation in Greece I can get a tax break equal to 700 euros. If I was in the UK they would pay 50% of the costs , so 10k.

Until the Greek politicians realise that to meet EU quotas for renewable energies they need to give us better incentives, I cant see it moving forward much here. siga siga

[Emma1310]

We weren't so far off-topic Wim


I can see the advantages for rural communities but the capital input would be huge given the poor condition of the infrastructure. In addition, at the moment renewable sources aren't really able to replace traditional energy sources, merely top-up and reduce consumption. Admittedly every little bit helps but this would definitely be along-term project and it remains to be seen whether the political will to see it through will exist beyond the next election!

Renewable energy sources is very much a hot topic in the UK at the moment but the circumstance are slightly different than in Crete.

[Wim]

No, not if you look at the WWF that way M.


But, as far as I understood the program, it means that; researching the parameters, investigating the (un)natural (re)sources, taking into consideration nature and landscape, it may lead to a conclusion that produces a positive energy solution that can lead to a harmonious development of the environment for the near future.

And in combination with; The Operational Programme “Crete and the Aegean Islands” it could mean a lot for a balanced and positive invironmetal development of Crete.

I have no children, will never get them (sob) but I know a few young people that I would like to benefit from it.

[househunter]

Well, can't speak about how it would affect Crete, but we have a very similar situation here in Ireland.

Great debates about Wind, Wave, Solar Power alternatives for Power Generation. We have some Wind Farms generating energy and have just this week connected a Wave Power Farm to our Elec. Grid.

According to what we hear, we are now "The World Leader in Wave Power Generated Electricity".

10 and 20 years ago, any dog in the street could have told those in Government that the demand for "must-haves" would lead to massive increases in demand for energy, and look what has been done in that time?? Next to nothing!

Now the time is getting very short to try to solve the problems caused by Industrialists making electric products that we cannot live without, and us consumers demands for all the latest gizmos.

Hence, back to the topic, no matter where we live, nobody wants to live next to a massive Wind Powered turbine. Yet, we still want all those electrical goods that "we cannot (or will not) live without"

Solutions will have to be found but, here in Ireland, we now have to pay massive fines for Carbon Emissions, which I take total exceptions to! The €800 million in fines that we have to pay this year would go a long way to solving lots of problems here in Ireland (Education, Health), if it is the same in Crete then we are both being unfairly penalized!

Why should we have to pay these millions of Euro fines while the major polluting countries can opt out of the Kyoto Agreement? The more we do to cut down on greenhouse gasses the longer these highly industrialized countries can continue their massive pollution and use more resources that are available to them due to other countries cutting down on the demand for them.

There are many other more aesthetic looking power generating, and power saving, devices that could be made available but these copyrights have been bought up by these major industrial countries, power companies etc, in order to stop them cutting down on power usage and help maintain their profits.

Why should Crete fall into paying fines for not cutting down on their demands for Electricity etc, while others ignore or refuse to do anything to stop global warming?

As the price for energy is really starting to hit various countries, these industrialists will make massive profits by putting the "Energy Friendly"products they bought up over the years.

So, NO! The people of Crete should not have to live with these until there is a level playing field, on which all the countries play their part!

I do agree with cutting down on demand for energy etc, recycling, cutting down on greenhouse gasses etc!

Crete is now being "selected" as a guinea pig and being asked to live with ugly looking wind turbines etc while other countries increase their pollution!

[Retired in Crete]

Quote: "Crete is now being "selected" as a guinea pig and being asked to live with ugly looking wind turbines etc while other countries increase their pollution!"

Crete already has many windfarms producing electricity.

The energy pricing policy here also helps conservation. The cost per unit starts off very low but increases in steps so that the more you use the more expensive per unit it becomes. This is the exact opposite of the UK price policy which says that the more you use the cheaper it becomes.

Solar water heating is used extensively in Crete. Most houses, and many hotels, have solar panels for this purpose. I went to Athens a few weeks ago and was surprised to see very few panels, despite the climates being similar. Here it is possible to buy a solar powered water heating system, (two solar panels, a insulated water tank and a tower to mount it all on) for a few hundred Euros. They are even sold in supermarkets. Why does a similar system in the UK cost several thousand pounds if the British are so keen on power conservation?

Perhaps Crete is not big on recycling, preferring incineration or landfill, but do you blame them when you remember that, because of the small bore plumbing system, most rubbish bins contain used loo paper? At least the bins here are emptied every day and not fortnightly! Scrap metal here is recycled. Put your old washing machine etc next to the green bin. It may stay there for a few days untill the scrap metal dealer picks it up on his weekly round.

Why did the WWF chose Crete? In my opinion Crete is already doing more than its fair share for conservation. Cambridgeshire, where I used to live, is doing very little, perhaps they should have started there.

John

PS The comments made refer to Eastern Crete, where I live, they may not apply to the whole island

[Wim]

Just to refer express to the specifications of the intentional scientific research; the objectives and the supposed solutions I quote:


Objectives

- Develop and implement a methodological approach, capable to support insular communities’ stakeholders to develop and implement efficient Sustainable Energy Plans (SEPs). The proposed approach will consider the characteristics, which determine the nature of the problem at hand, i.e. the needs and requirements that a SEP should address (the fact that many stakeholders with multiple and sometimes conflicting objectives are involved, the substantial lack of information and other).


- Apply the developed approach on SEP development to 3 insular areas in Cyprus, Crete and Sardinia (Cabras). Through these case studies, the proposed approach for SEP development will be validated, while at the same time important information on potential problems, omissions and gaps on technological, research and policy issues will be identified.

- Identify the potential problems and bottlenecks to RES development and penetration in insular and ecologically sensitive areas.

- Identify the degree of maturity of the communities on energy saving and environmental protection issues.

- Identify the existing potentials for SEC implementation in the European islands and examine issues related to SEC characteristics and best-practice.


- Provide insight to policy makers on the issues that should be considered in order to develop a successful policy on the development of SECs in island and ecologically sensitive areas, i.e. the elaboration of public participation schemes and policy measures alleviating and support Renewable Energy Sources (RES) awareness, acceptability and development issues in these communities.

- Identify the requirements that awareness and training campaigns on RES development addressed to islands and ecologically sensitive areas should fulfil in order to be successful.

Solution
Some of the expected results of the project are:

- A typology of alternative renewable energy technologies according to the use they are most suitable for, taking into account the needs of each specific insular area.

- A typology of European islands and ecologically sensitive areas according to their characteristics (geographical, economic, social, environmental, etc).

- An integrated methodological approach capable to support insular communities’ stakeholders to develop and implement an efficient SEP.

- Conclusions on the potential problems and bottlenecks in implementing a SEP.

- A practical guide for SEC planners.

- Information on the degree of maturity of the communities on promoting energy efficiency and environmental protection issues.

- Conclusions on the potential for SEC development on European islands.

- A dissemination plan for an awareness campaign on European islands concerning the promotion of renewable energy technologies.

- A European conference related to the issue of SECs.


Nobody is enforcing anybody neither criti-cizing but only to encourage the above mentioned islands and the concerned governments to undertake a scientific research for which there is some € 2.065.- billion reserved by the EEC for the Greece government.

Of course, as Emma noticed in her thread, there must also be money invested by the governments but that is only logical since we are talking here about the future of a generation, a significant culture and a rare island which all together should become a World Heritage actually. The Greek Government has money reserved in it's national financial plan for this purpose.

The experiences in other countries of the EEG concerning "Renewable Energy Technologies" are logically be studied and become part of the whole. After all, this is a scientific study. Bare in mind that he who does not care, neither invest in the environment, will be judged by future generations. If any....

And John, always nice to read you on the forum, this stupid thing about the toilet paper has always amazed me because there is such a simple solution.
A "faeces unit" fixed to the toilet outlet in combination with a toilet shower. The faeces are pulverized and pumped away in a 50 mm drain while the shower cleans your bottom the only hygienic way I know of; with warm or cold water. A combination with the possibility of warm air to dry the posterior is possible. You can even have it combination with an air extraction. Not a single peace of paper is used which means no unhygienic waste bins etc.. This is an existing known and proven technique. You can find it in any house in the Islamic world.
Think of it. Just sit down, and when you're ready you just pull up your trousers and off you go.

For info: mail me a pm.

It would do great in Crete too, and in combination with a small solar driven waste water/purification installation that produces hydrogen and drinking water as a by-product, you've created your own little "one family sustainable energy solution".

Gosh I'm good, I have solved the whole problem in one rainy Saturday afternoon; where can I collect the € 2.065.- billion? (patent pending!!)

[Assim]

The paper thing reminds me of a line in a kids film. When Manni the woolly mamouth tells Sid the sloth that the human baby has one of those nappy things on. Sids reply is "those humans are so disgusting".

I was thinking of a toilet/bidet in one unit for when I build my eco summer house. I found this one that looks good. Only thing to work out now is how to seperate the grey water and the black water. Urine is a good fertilizer when diluted so you would want the urine to go to watering the flowers, but you can't use untreated faeces on the garden, so that would need to either go through a treatment system or into a cesspit.

When space does not allow for a toilet and a bidet, consider a combination unit, such as the Shower Toilet from *****.

This unit has a seat which some users may find more comfortable than the standard bidet. In addition, those with limited mobility will appreciate not having to move to use the bidet.

Unique features include a warm rinsing spray, a gentle air dryer, and an automatic air purifier. This highly functional toilet mounts to the wall or floor. When mounted to the wall, the height can be adjusted from 15" to 19".

close-up of spray arm in ******'s Shower ToiletThe spray is activated by a large button on the side of the unit. When the button is pressed, the spray arm extends from a protected position at the rear of the bowl. The intensity of the spray is regulated by a turn knob.

After the spray arm retracts into its protected sleeve, it is rinsed with fresh water ensuring that the spray arm and nozzle are cleaned every time.

Traditional bidets allow the user to control the water temperature. With the Shower Toilet, water temperature is pre-set to 98.6°F (body temperature).

ps: Patent 7284285 (google it)

[Wim]

Assim,

I would advise you to pee in a bottle or fit a plastic hose while sitting. Are you still viewing kids films

[Emma1310]

Are you still viewing kids films

If Assim has children I bet he wishes he wasn't watching kids' films!!! I remember being subjected to Monsters Inc 4 times in 2 days at one point. Needless to state I haven't watched it since.


How did this turn into a toilet topic?