18 replies to this topic

[Dinny]

Well, I only had ONE day off from work, so I made the tour on ExploreCrete. Thanks, Yannis, for this new "tour" - I'll be sure to visit Knossos for real soon, the pictures have made me curious... and I guess it's about time for me actually to go there for real!!

[SteveB]

Dinny,we avoided Knossos for many years,didnt fancy the crowds!
However,last year we decided to go for it.
The best tips are to go in the afternoon,you miss most of the tour buses then.
Also,having read up and seen many tv programmes.we had a good understanding of what we were seeing,so instead of following the arrows ,the route the guides take,we went round the opposite way,sort of backwards if you like!
I suppose you could say,that instead of doing Knossos,we did "Sossonk"!
Cheers,SteveB

[Wim]

Actually, the best way to visit Knossos is somewhere in October/ November or any other month in the off season. What was it again, this saying about "only Englishmen and mad dogs"
And before you do read some stuff about the excavations by Schliemann (who couldn't afford to buy the land) and Evans (who could). That way you prepare yourself against the disappointments Evans caused by rebuilding parts of the Queen's Megaron (yes the one with the copied dolphins frescoes).

Knossos is more or less a tourist trap. If you really want to "feel" where Minoan Crete was about go to Phaistos, Agia Triada (and visit Dinny ) on the way to Komos (beach) which used to be a Minoan harbour and where Europe is said to have been begotten by Zeus (in the shape of a bull).
Read Mary Renault's "The bull from the sea" and experience those anxious moments when Theseus slaughtered the Minotaur with the help of Ariadne and left the poor girl, no thanks, on the Island of Naxos.

"Crete's history is immense"

Take care

[Wim]

Sorry, first the "King must die" and afterwards "The bull from the sea"

Oops...

[SteveB]

Yup,been to Pheastos,and read the Mary Reault books.
Must admit,the place that made us feel most that we had gone back to Minoan times,was Kato Zacros,seeing the "palace" then walking through a deserted "Valley of the dead" just before sunset.
Seriously spooky that!

[Wim]

Yes Steve,

I liked Zakros almost as much as Phaistos, but both not as much as Agia Triada. For some reason or another this place adds more to my imagination.

Anyhow, maybe you know of this site; digiserve

It shows all Minoan excavations with pics etc.

Kalo explorations

[Pam]

I agree, Wim, Agia Triadha is something special - we were the only ones there when we visited it last year and it's a lovely spot. We also went to Knossos last year and were disappointed as even though it was late in the day there were still tour trips being escorted round and queues to get into the more interesting bits. We agreed we wouldn't bother again.

[Henry Hooray]

Sorry folks, I disagree!

Saying that Knossos isn't very good sounds to me a little like popular myths that surface every now and then, such as 'Shakespeare was overrated' and so on.

Knossos is a fabulous place. Some of reconstruction may well be incorrect, but is certainly does leave an impression of somewhat greater accuracy than the other (also splendid) sites can and do. Unless you are a purist scientist then I would say that Knossos is an absolute must on the Cretan itenerary.

Just a small point: don't forget that they did use a lot a what we, basking in today's fashion' might call garish colours. What you see may not be far removed, whether you like it or not ...

Henry.

[Wim]

Right Henry,
To me personally, I don't need Evans resurrections. Imagination and knowing the facts as they were when excavated both by Schliemann and Evans (without his romantic views) add more reality to the site.

I'd advice you to read "The secret of Crete" by Hans Georg Wunderlich. Who, after careful research came up with the conclusion that it wasn't a palace of the living but of the death.
And that's got nothing to do with Shakespeare

Keep on digging

[santo]

Wow, just what i like when i have 5 mins to try and catch up on topics....................something really light hearted

[Bob&Rose]

I've come across Wunderlich and was intrigued by his theories, I was surprised still more by the lack of rebuttals of a serious nature. I have asked amongst my more academic friends and finally was put in touch with the wife of a professor from London's Institute of Archaeology. Her answer was basically: "don't worry your head about Wunderlich, it's all rubbish". This has made me even more determined to dig deeper, as it were, so next week we are off to Crete for fifteen days and will tour the major Minoan sites before winding up at Heraklion & Knossos. If any one has seen anything that is vaguely academic about Wunderlich's theories I would like to know of them. Regards

[Wim]

Hi Bob or is it Rose,

There are a lot of logical arguments that can't be concluded like rubbish. Evans, inspired by the neo romantic epoque of the late 19th century and the upcoming of bathrooms ( for the aristocracy) was probably prejudiced when he founded his theory. Neither he came up with an acadamic prove.

Wunderlich used his geological knowledge and deductions plus the fact that the Minoans were in contact with Egypt (The "Keftiu" as the Cretans were called payed tribute to the Pharao) and this theocracy was famous for its world of the gods and the death, not of the living), the material of the "bathtub" (that can't stand water) and the fact it had'nt any drain (which could be very useful) and a myriad of references on the Linar A clay tablets to "honey", that the Egyptians also used for balming the corpses of the dead, etc. etc make it at least dubious if indeed we are dealing with a palace of the living.

Taken into consideration that the Minoans were deep into relegion, and thence for the world after, as were the Egyptians and actualy all civilistations in the Mediterranean basin, plea for a different, less fancy point of view

Dug

[Bob&Rose]

Dug

This doesn't get us very far. In the British Museum there is a "bath tub", the quotation marks are the BM's, which does have a hole low down on the narrow side. But does this mean it was a bath tub as Evans claimed? It is very small. At the Forgotten Empire exhibition at the BM last year there was a similar article which was found with a curled up body inside. A burial obviously. Also in the BM on the other side of the gallery there is a rectangular sarcophogus with drain holes in the base; why couldn't this be a bath tub as well?
My quest for a respectable critique of Wunderlich continues.

Bob&Rose

[Wim]

Hi B&R,

I can understand that, it's the quest for every scholar to reconsider established views.
Btw, did you read the book of Wunderlich?


Wim

[Wim]

I think this is an interesting link

By the way does any of our learned friends have any idea when the Elgin Marbles will be returned to Greece where it belongs?


Don't steal

[DaveW.]

..by damn sir, you have a cheek. Return the Elgin Marbles? Whatever next? I suppose you'll be wanting all those Dutch masters that are hanging in galleries in England returned to Holland next? Huh..........

[Wim]

Hi Dave,

You should read the whole story and don't come up with a dull argument

As you know, of course, there are a lot of precious pieces of art that have come into the hands of musea ( Hermitage e.g.) in a dubious way. Happily there are some governments that try to have them returned to the original owners (or heirs). In case you don't know, the Hermitage (e.g.) has a tremendoous lot of art that has been stolen by the Nazis from the former Jew population and thereafter by the Russian occupier.

But I agree, if that's what you mean, that this is not the right topic for this matter. So I made a new one about the Elgin Marbles in the Crete Gazette Forum.
And, as far as your opening line concerns, here is my other one ,and don't feel that fast grasped by your "marbles"

For people who want to react to the Elgin Marbles issue please go to the pertaining topic in the Crete Gazette Forum.That way we can safe this one for the Knossos argument

Wim, taking care of business

[Bob&Rose]

Wim Thanks for the link.
Yes I have read Wunderlich.
I've also read the Ann Brown (of the Ashmolean) account of Evans' work, she doesn't refer to Wunderlich but obviously doesn't accept at face value everything Evans said ; and the BM published book, "Minoans", by Lesley Fitton. It is also interesting but doesn't mention Wunderlich either. Both of these suggest that the Evans account of Knossos/Minoan palaces needed modifying and hint that they were more palaces of dead than the living.
The Evans biography, "Minotaur" by Macgillivray does mention Wunderlich and is puzzled why there was no reasoned rebuttal, it was published in 2000. I'm now waiting on the Crete Oxford Archaelogical Guide by Macdonald & Paton which is in preparation.
My quest for a reasoned critique continues.
R&B

Ps do you know what Coppens' credentials are?

[Wim]

Dear B&R

This is the link to his bio

So both Ann Brown and Lesley Fitton seem to consent with Wunderlich about Knossos being a palace of the dead?! And that was Wunderlich's, no more no less, argument.

Let's keep on questing