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Containerharbour In Timbaki, Part 1


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#181 Pam

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 06:12 PM

Thanks for the updates, Ton - will there be a referendum? Anyway, it's looking promising, I really don't see this development as appropriate for the area.

Boiling Snail - where are you thinking of buying in this area? We're hoping to buy a place around the area as well, but not next year - need to wait till I retire in 3 years! We'll be over on holiday in late May and I second Ton's invite to meet up for a drink.

Pam & Bob

#182 Boiling Snail

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Posted 06 November 2006 - 09:51 PM

Pam - we're looking at several sites around the bay. We hope to get out in December to make a decision - flights allowing. We've already been half-way round Europe looking to invest in land but were really impressed by the beaches in Southern Crete. Have you looked at the bay on Google Earth yet? The image quality is excellent, except for around Matala.

We would be very pleased to meet everybody for a drink; where I grew up it is very rude to refuse such an invitation. :D I see from the blogs that it is becoming customary.

#183 Ton

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:42 AM

Boiling Snail what dates in December are u planning to be in Crete?

#184 Ton

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 12:30 PM

The latest news from the meeting is that the plans for the location of the port are now moving west a bit closer to the old airport and Aghia Galini since the initial planned/proposed area is designated protected. The Minister talked about a referendum by the end of the year by the local community. He said if the local community decides that they dont want the port we will scrap our plans for its construction. However roumors are spreading that he will ask the referendum to be conducted throughout all Crete since he stands more chances to pass it this way. In order to do this he will have to involve officials who will have to interprete the law his way. He will then sell the port to Cretans... that this port is the greatest thing ever happen for Crete. Another issue is if they hold local referendum in Timbaki, the Aghia Galini people who are mostly affected by its construction they will not be able to vote since they belong in another municipality (Rethymnon).
The good news is that local people/officials like Mrs Shinaraki are now involved who have the right vision for the area and who can put the right questions and arguments against the evil plans of the minister for the construction of such a port.

#185 santo

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 02:23 PM

Hiya Ton, thanks for the update I'm just a bit concerned that things may be going wrong with this one, I get the feeling now that as much as the politicians are aware of the unrest, it will be put to the cretans in a way that it could be passed and accepted, I hope Mrs Shinaraki has got the stamina for the fight.
:D B)
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#186 Retired in Crete

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 07:57 PM

Personally I believe that the whole population of Crete should vote in any referendum on the project as the port will affect the whole islands economy. After all, if only the people around Heathrow and Stanstead Airports had been asked if the airports should be built, most of you would be unable to visit Crete as no airports would exist!

John
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#187 Ton

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Posted 07 November 2006 - 11:50 PM

Thank goodness that is only you and the minister thinking like this.

#188 Boiling Snail

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 11:05 AM

I don't know about Stanstead but Heathrow is an expansion of a Second World War airport. I lived in its flight path for a year - many people do. Later on I used it for business. I now live in France and don't use it at all. As Heathrow results from a constant expansion over 50 years it does not compare with a container port at Timbaki. Nobody was "asked" about it, as you state, and no referendum has ever been held about it.

The French government want to build a large airport to serve Paris and may start from scratch. Many acres of farmland will be taken over. This project can better be compared to Timbaki as there is no existing airport. But as local inhabitants object, and following your logic of comparison, Timbaki locals should vehemently object.

But, France is not proposing a referendum on the construction of the airport. And it does not ruin precious animal habitat, or coastline. So, it's a very different monster. Also, unlike France, there are alternatives to the Timbaki project, such as expansion of existing ports.

You obviously haven't seen the coast of Italy which was ruined in the 1950s by motorway and unrestricted house building. It is a sad experience to tour the coastline of Italy. And not just for tourists. Italian authorities have learnt from history and now apply very strict planning laws on countryside house renovation.

Spain is worse, as everybody knows. And many Spanish people regret it. Benidorm (I think) town council not so long ago decided to reverse the trend with stricter controls.

The coastline in Southern Crete is a legacy. Noone yet regrets unrestricted exploitation of it, but will one day. It is almost the last unspoilt south-facing coastlines in Europe. I personally hope the beauty can be preserved and local industry find stability without unrestriced development. Some people have argued that a container port would not contribute to the local economy. It would benefit China, etc, and other parts of Europe.

Holidays at the seaside have a long tradition. What did your father do for the summer? Come to think of it, why have you retired to Crete? Was it for its potential for foreign investment and industrial growth? I don't think so. Airports in Europe are experiencing growth in part due to cheap flights that take us all on holiday. What would we do without beautiful places to holiday in?

Your argument is confused. "if only the people around Heathrow and Stanstead Airports had been asked"? Heathrow does not result from a referendum. No one was "asked". "the port will affect the whole islands economy"? You will have to explain how, since noone has yet provided a convincing argument that profits will not be pumped to foreign companies.

The "explore crete" forum would benefit from a preserved coastline in Southern Crete. And here's the real issue. A countrywide referendum is a way for the Marine Minister to win support for the project. I personally hope the project will not find the support it needs. Don't you? Why did you retire to Crete? For its quiet, its splendour, or its industrial areas?

#189 mani

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 11:40 AM

Boiling Snail

Stansted is also leftover from the last war. It was an American bomber base. It too is going thru rapid expansion as my father who lives under the flight path will tell you.

Sorry to stray off thread
Ian

#190 Retired in Crete

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 09:25 PM

Quote from Boiling Snail:

"The "explore crete" forum would benefit from a preserved coastline in Southern Crete. And here's the real issue. A countrywide referendum is a way for the Marine Minister to win support for the project. I personally hope the project will not find the support it needs. Don't you? Why did you retire to Crete? For its quiet, its splendour, or its industrial areas?"

I fully realise that I am "a voice in the wilderness" on this forum and it is understandable that a tourist forum does not want the project to go ahead. However I am not alone! If you look on another forum which is run for ex-pats in Crete you will find that my views coincide with the majority of Brits who live here. The forum thread starts here:

http://www.britsincr...um=1156427753/0

Sorry that it is 6 plus pages but it starts very much against it and ends with the majority in favour. Why do you think that is?

Could it be that we care about the future of the island and its people? Could it be that we worry what will happen when tourist numbers drop? Could it be that we are watching the small businesses of Greek friends going broke because the hotels are going "fully inclusive"?

Read the thread, it will answer most of your questions to me!

Out of interest, on yet another thread, CJ Meyer, who has posted on this forum, admits that the numbers quoted on the "protest site" are wrong! His exact words "cut & pasted":

"BUT, 50 ships/day is absolutely a canard (no harbour is able to handle this).
May be they wanted to say 5 ships/day."

The protest site quotes wrong figures, what else does it get wrong?

Lastly, I "retired to Crete" for none of the reasons you quote. My reasons were:
1) The climate (my wife has chronic asthma)
2) The lower cost of living (I could not afford to retire in the UK)
3) I love the Greek people and their way of life.

By the way Crete was not my first choice, or my second, nor my third! This was my wish list:
1) Buy a yacht and sail the world (my dream since childhood, rejected by wife - she gets seasick)
2) Vancouver, British Columbia. (Despite having a brother there, they would not have me)
3) Port Mogan, Gran Canaria (Was buying house but not part of EEC so Govt pension would be frozen)

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#191 Ton

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:25 AM

John Sounds like by default or Force Majour or something like that you ended up in Crete!!!
This forum John is not a tourist forum, and is not consisting only of British people but its members come from allover the world including of course British. I have no interest to go to the site you pointed out above since its name specifies a group of people who seperate themselves from the rest. ^Britsincrete^'Is this a clan or what?Sorry but I dont think many people from this Forum will visit the site^Britsincrete'^Must have been created by someone who wants to capitalise/sell insurance and other services to Patriots Brits.
As for Mr. CJ Meyer he expressed in your language verywell his view and his numbers are correct. 5 ships will be docking and 50 smaller ones will be on standby to load and they will occupy all the bay area from Aghia Galini all the way to Matala.

#192 Wim

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:54 AM

Right Ton, as always.

I wonder why, after all that has been written on this forum about the harbor, especially the part about the quantity of jobs it'll provide that there are still people who consider this port of any benefit for the population of Crete. Some members even use arguments for an argumentum.

I loved the way Ton, how you mentioned this "britsincrete" thing. Tally Ho, back to the past and rule the waves B)

Well, here is a nice pic about this harbor that seems to become a new "Trojan Horse" for the most of us and a "horn of plenty" for a minority.

Stσ Kalσ :D
True is that adage: "He who yields to rule by wooden heads, becomes himself a fool."

#193 Retired in Crete

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 01:54 AM

Quote from Ton:
"This forum John is not a tourist forum, and is not consisting only of British people but its members come from all over the world including of course British"

Look at the top of the page! "The Travel Guide about the Real Crete" Cars for hire, a Beach Guide, Hotel Accomodation, an A-Z Guide to Crete and maps etc etc. Read the accounts of peoples holidays in Crete in the Blogs! If this Web Site is not a "Tourist Site" or a "Tourist Forum" I would be interested to learn what you consider it to be. I have not suggested that it is a "British Tourist Forum" as it is obvious that you have members from all over the world, but, dare I say, few who actually live in Crete as I do. I joined this Forum because I thought that I could help with local knowledge and experience of living here. (See my posts under "Living in Crete".)

Another Quote:
"I have no interest to go to the site you pointed out above since its name specifies a group of people who seperate themselves from the rest. ^Britsincrete^'Is this a clan or what?Sorry but I dont think many people from this Forum will visit the site^Britsincrete'^Must have been created by someone who wants to capitalise/sell insurance and other services to Patriots Brits."

You have no interest to go to the site.........but this is about a subject dear to your heart! I may be wrong but I suggest that you do not want to hear views that contradict your own, or points that you may not have considered. (In fairness you have been kind and tollerant towards me.) Some members of this site also post regularly there and have posted in the thread I referred to.

"Must have been created by someone who wants to capitalise/sell insurance and other services to Patriots Brits." Strangely enough the site carries far less advertising than this one!

Wim.

I found your post objectionable in tone.
My previous offer to share raki with you is withdrawn! Go and plant tulips or whatever it is that you do.

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#194 Wim

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:17 AM

Great John

At last I got you where I wanted you, and showing what you really are about. There is something like a members profile on this board and I must say, old chap, that you really fit yours.



Wim :D
True is that adage: "He who yields to rule by wooden heads, becomes himself a fool."

#195 Retired in Crete

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:37 AM

Wim

So what am I about?

(be carefull, I am ten months older than you, respect your elders!)

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#196 santo

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:09 AM

What's next girls Handbags at ten paces ??????????

:D B) B)
Santo

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#197 Dinny

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:21 AM

Com'on guys, could we skip the personal stuff? Maybe we should ask Yannis to create another forum and name it "The Arena"? It's good to hear everybody's opinion, even when they contradict your own beliefs, but it's nice to follow the thread as long as it keeps a civilized tone. :D

#198 Boiling Snail

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 09:33 AM

I don't want a good discussion to degenerate any further. Thanks for your reply Retired in Crete.

I looked at the discussion on BritsinCrete (let's face it, it is a vulgar title for a site). I didn't find evidence for your assertion that most posters changed their minds. Just Ken1 who thinks that the container port may be an alternative to tourism. You should check and provide names of posters who changed their minds. I think it could possibly be your imagination.

I very much liked your assessment of tour operators : "The sole purpose of tour operators is to generate profits which can be distributed to the company owners and shareholders." I am stunned that you don't make the same connection with investment in large industrial projects such as container ports. Messara locals will not invest in the port and will not reap the rewards. A new local job market will only be generated if the containers travel by road or rail to Heraklion, as at Felixstowe, UK. Since they will merely "jump ship" the development will not generate a boom in the local economy.

Basically there is no alternative to tourism to revive a local economy. Other than wine, no new agriculture can have the same effect. Industrial investment can. But is Greece's last unspoilt coastline the right place for this?

I was very happy to find two posts by StevenPen on page 5. The Marine Minister says : "Timbaki will be given the opportunity to become a large town over the next few years". Retired : are you really so naive as to take politicians at their word? Does he have evidence for this?

The article by Greek lawyer Androulakakis says everything. "Let’s look beyond the short-term profits and consider the long-term evils for our land. We must not let Timbaki become another Ano Liosia, a profitable rubbish dump, which will however be permanent and irretrievably destroy the natural landscape. We have fought so hard to prevent the construction of a new landfill site in the Timbaki area; will we now fling open the gates to something so much worse?"

Like most of the population of Crete, I guess, you are simply living on the North Coast.

#199 Pam

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:58 PM

I'm with Dinny - let's cut out the personal stuff - we're all entitled to our opinion even if it's not the same as others. Also, let's not get critical about other forums. I do visit Brits in Crete as it has a lot of useful information for people like me wanting to retire to Crete but it won't be for the likes of some people who enjoy this forum. There's a place for many types of forum in this world!

Ton, please keep the updates coming. I think it's fairly clear that locals like yourself are against this development, and let's hope it goes your way.

#200 Retired in Crete

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 02:35 PM

I am only too happy to "cut out the personal stuff".

As I stated I found Wim's reference to "tally ho" etc objectionable. I tried to lighten my response by the reference to raki etc. only to recieve a reply implying that I had something to hide. If you refer back to an earlier post I made you will see the following:

"I have just re-read my post above and now realise, with hindsight, it could be deemed offensive to another member of the forum. I have considered editing it, but feel that if I remove this reference it will detract from my argument. I sincerely apologise now to whoever it was who made the original post. If the moderator decides to to delete it or edit it I fully understand and accept his decision."

Also in a PS on another post I said:
"I did not intend to lump you in with the fish and chip brigade but now I can see how you got that impression. I am sorry - again"

I think that my past record on this site speaks for its self. I have apologised even before anyone objected! Should I not expect the same courtesy in return?

As far as the proposed container port is concerned you may recall that way back in September I said "THis is my last post on the subject". Well this is now definately my last!

Thank you for listening to my points. Someone said earlier "Maybe we are all trying to get to the same place, we are just taking different roads". I hope it is true.

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.