Containerharbour In Timbaki, Part 1
Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:11 PM
Of course I signed
Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:58 PM
Ton do let us know if there's anything more we can do.
Pam & Bob
Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:46 PM
Posted 24 August 2006 - 03:39 PM
Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:35 PM
I have very mixed feelings on this. (just to stir it up a bit!).
I would be most upset if a guest in my house told me what to do. I am a guest of the Greek islanders, is it right that I should tell them what to do?
I have visited the petition, but not voted, and read all the comments. Bearing in mind the recent behavior of British tourists, is it really helpfull for them/us to say they/we will not come back if this project goes ahead. I would have thought that the government may well want them not to come back. (I am refering to the recent "beating up" of a female doctor by a group of British girls and other unacceptable behaviour).
Lastly, Crete needs and wants to progress in the modern world. It cannot stay locked in a time warp because it looks pretty and "foreigners" (including me?)want it to stay that way. I want the Cretans to prosper and enjoy a higher standard of living. If the democratically elected government thinks that a container port is the way to achieve this then it should go ahead as this is what democracy is all about. (Maybe)
Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:52 PM
Nevertheless. As I understand, it would be a trading agreement with China. I am no expert and obtain my information from news, newspaper etc., but what China¢s input is in 'port activities' that is something Antwerp Port has already been experiencing. Not much good I am afraid -> dubious trade.
Part of the now still beautiful South coast would become industrial area for masses of containers, warehouses, and things like that, with a large impact for the local people and for tourism.
Like you I am puzzled with the argument whether I may/may not say what is good for the local population and of course I can easily speak because I have work and I live a rather prosperous life.
On the other hand Crete also depends largely on tourism (which not always has such good influence, I know it ) but I wonder what would be the impact on it if the containerplans come true. Moreover it seems to me that Greek people (and I with them) doubt tehmselves whether Crete and its population will prosper much by this evolution. I guess Chinese business people would be the major beneficiaries.
Now, not only did I sign the petition but forwarded it to friends and acquaintances. One of them, who is working at a shipping company was telling me that -knowing this kind of business- a container harbour in Crete seems to be pure science fiction in his opinion.
I for one hope he is right !
Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:08 PM
The effects on tourism, in overall terms, of the proposed container port will be minimal. Crete has some 3 million tourist visitors a year, most of these stay on the north coast and the majority do not leave their chosen resort. The location of the proposed terminal, although beautiful, is not a main tourist area. Let us be wildly optimistic and say that 30,000 people visit the area (to keep the maths simple). Because of the lack of tourist facilities, only half will spend any money, the rest will simply admire the view, lie on the beach, and move on. The nett effect of losing these 30,000 visitors will be to reduce the total visitors to Crete by 1%. As half of these missing visitors spend nothing in the area the effects on the Cretan economy will be even less. The continuing security scare and peoples reluctance to fly will have a bigger effect! If the tourists lost by the development could be enticed to the undeveloped South East coast they would find new areas of equal appeal.
The current Cretan economy, which exists on tourism in the summer and olive picking in the winter, is, in my opinion, unsustainable in the long term. Visitor numbers for the last 3 years have been almost static and with the emergence of new holiday destinations around the world how long will it be before the numbers decline? The economy is also not under Cretan or Greek control. Every year, in meeting rooms round the world, the major tour operators decide the fate of the Cretan economy for the next year. Their decisions on how much brochure space to devote to Crete will materially affect every Cretan family. These peoples power is enormous; they can make or break the Island. Their ability to do this must be reduced. The government realise this which is why they are proposing this sort of diversification.
I do realise that the results of this can be catastrophic for a minority of people but for the benefit of Crete and Greece as a whole the government think this development is urgently required.
Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:20 PM
warehouses are to take over what would happen to the agricultural economy? Would Cretans then have to endure those tomatoes that are reared under glass in Holland?
Posted 26 August 2006 - 11:38 PM
Posted 28 August 2006 - 03:50 PM
Following strong opposition from the local people in Timbaki and the sourounding villages the Minister Mr. Kefalogiannis is willing to transfer the port to other location according to the Greek article below. It seems that the government is finally getting the message. 'No container port in Timbaki' Thank you very much!!
This is a quote from one of Ton's postings in this topic. It shows that the people of Tymbaki and the surrounding area are "not amused".
And since Ton and also Yannis are the best informed members of this forum I think we can rely on their observations.
As far as the remarks concern about our "interference" in the politics of Greece I'm afraid I will simply disagree with that opinion. Greece is a member of the European Union and hence a lot of financial assistance has/will not only be(en) put in extending their harbours (thats why the idea of Tymbaki harbour was born) but alos in environmental projects.
One of these projects was the protection of the beaches of Kommos as beeing the breeding ground of the protected caretta caretta turtle (loggerhead sea turtle).
This beach will be totally destroyed if this unholy plan would succeed. Also the pollution of the sea by one oil "leaking" container ship or worse, a collision, would mean a disaster
So here are some reasons why "we" the people of the European Community are not even allowed but obliged to raise our voice and sign this petition. After all it's "our" Euro we're talking about aswell as "our" environment and "our" Crete. Even though sometimes I think that "we" the people that love Crete and want it to prosper in a healty way seem to be more concerned then the Cretans themselves.
Posted 29 August 2006 - 02:49 AM
Thank you so much for your response. I think that we could “discuss” this for a long time, it would be better if we could do it over a drink, but we do not have that facility.
Dare I question how well you read what I said?
Quote from your post:
“This is a quote from one of Ton's postings in this topic. It shows that the people of Tymbaki and the surrounding area are "not amused".
In my post I said:
“I do realise that the results of this can be catastrophic for a minority of people but for the benefit of Crete and Greece as a whole the government think this development is urgently required.”
“And since Ton and also Yannis are the best informed members of this forum I think we can rely on their observations.”
Maybe! Since I do not know how this will affect them personally I cannot judge their impartiality. I do know that they are both involved in this website which states “The Travel Guide about Real Crete”. It is a tourist guide to Crete. As this project will affect tourism their views will be slanted to protect tourism. We also have to remember that the “best informed” of the time told Columbus that the world was flat. The “best informed” said that to run a mile in under 4 mins was beyond the physical powers of man. I could give many more examples. Are you saying that as they are “the best informed” no other opinion is allowed?
“As far as the remarks concern about our "interference" in the politics of Greece I'm afraid I will simply disagree with that opinion.”
I would be first to defend your right to disagree! However, I made no remarks about this, I simply asked the question “I am a guest of the Greek islanders, is it right that I should tell them what to do?” If you say that the answer to this is “Yes” then fine, thanks for answering me.
As you rightly say, Greece is part of the European Union but Greece, like the rest of the Union, is a democracy. The Greek people voted for the current government which wants this project to go ahead (for the reasons outlined in my posts). The E U is also a democracy (sort of, could start another thread about that!) If you think that Greece is reneging on promises to protect wildlife, or anything else you do not like, your protests should be directed to your Euro MP. This is the way democracy works.
You make no comments about the current Cretan economy and the future, or lack of a future, for the tourist industry. How will you protect the Cretan economy? You say that you want Crete to prosper in a healthy way – how would you suggest this is achieved?
The Greek people have voted, the democratically elected government has decided, the EU has offered their backing. Let the bulldozers roll!!!
(Stay critical – you bet!!!)
Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:30 PM
I was not adressing you, but gave my opinion about this matter as I also did in previous postings in this forum and as comments in the Crete Gazette.
We could easily discuss this all till kingdom comes but, as you wrote, it would do better while drinking a nice tsipouro. But even then, I'm afraid, we would'nt come up with a solution that fits Crete, perhaps only with a hangover....
It'll take about 3 years for me to retire to Crete and this will give some time to abide. Problem is that I want to retire somewhere along the coast of Messara Colpa.....
In the meantime the Cretans that do care and know about pro's and con's, especially concerning the net profits for Crete, have started an action committee to prevent this harbour thing to happen. At the other hand there also seem to be a lot of Cretans who don't care about it at all...
So I have come to the conclusion that if democracy (whatever that is) prevails, another pristine part of Crete will disappear for ever.
This is my last comment concerning this topic. I don't want to go on and on and on and on...
I rest my case
Posted 10 September 2006 - 04:35 PM
The mayor of Timbaki sent recently a letter to Mr. Kefalogiannis complaining that despite his previous efforts there is no communication from the ministry in regards to the plans of the container port in Timbaki. He is emphasizing to the ministry that without the participation and the involvment in a project of the municipality of Timbaki and its citizens no planning can be made. In the mean time several eco groups are reacting to the creation of a container port in Timbaki due to the ecological destruction of the area.
Now answering John's comments I would like to know how he would feel, if for the shake of Democracy and the country someone decides to place an industrial garbage processor next to his house. As for Democracy in Europe? Are we kiding ourselves? The only real country with democracy in Europe is Switzerland where the citizens vote for every little issue. The others are a Greek Tragedy. They are running from Anarchy to dictatorship. The European beuracrats are only good for expensive dinners and bla bla. No action and no style and no clear position in things which matter. Yes just follow the steps of the big brother. Its a little bit like Lucky Luke and the brothers Dalton. hahahahaha. Democracy?
Posted 15 September 2006 - 02:02 AM
Strange that you should ask how I would feel if the government decided to build something objectionable next to my house as I am in exactly that position. I live on the outskirts of a village that has existed since Minoan times. The powers that be have decided that an extension to the E17 will pass within 100 meters or so of the village and because I have been unable to find out the exact route, they may want my house or it will pass close by. They are currently dynamiting a tunnel through the mountain.
I have mixed feelings. The village is dieing as the young are going to large towns or Athens to find work. I would guess that about one quarter of the houses are empty. I want the people of the area to prosper and the young to return. If the road will do this, and it is right next to my house I will move, not happily, but I will accept that it is required for the common good of the people of Crete. I actually doubt the necessity of a new road as, by English standards, there is little traffic on the old one.
I have already commented on democracy and the EU. I suggested that we could start a new thread to discuss it, or lack of it. In broad terms, I agree with what you say, but it is the only system we have and so you have to work within it.
It is all too easy to protest against something, but very difficult to think of an alternative solution to the problems with the Cretan economy as I outlined in my post. If and when the protesters do this, they will have my total support.
Posted 15 September 2006 - 03:17 PM
Posted 15 September 2006 - 05:03 PM
Pam & Bob
Posted 15 September 2006 - 05:35 PM
Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:33 AM
If you believe that the Cretan economy is "fine" now and will stay that way for the next 20 years and that the tourist will keep on comming here then who am I to argue/debate with you. I would defend your right to hold this view.
I am retired, I don't have to find work, but the Cretans do, and for them I am deeply concerned. If/when the tourists stop visiting, and all the predictions are that they will, the Islands economy will return to 1950, as it was before they came. Mass poverty will follow as there will be little work apart from low paid agricultural employment. The contributor who was only worried that he wouln't be able to buy decent tomatoes when he is on holiday will be very happy. What would appear to be his worst nightmare will not happen! This, to me, is a sad indication of how fickle tourists can be, they have little thought for the people of the countries they visit, they only care about the price of alchohol, the cost of cigarettes and will it be warm & sunny. Please read other forums, they complain that they cannot get English style fish & chips (deep frozen cod, dipped in one week old batter and deep fried). They do not care that they can get wonderful fresh fish here because the types available are not familiar to them and they are served with their heads on. A practice which most British do not like. These statements may not apply to the members of this forum, but they do apply to tourists in general.
I have already stated that when you, or any other "protester", can provide alternative plans to ensure the continued prosperity of the Cretan people I will be more than happy to sign the petition. Until then I have to side with the government, who realise the bleak future facing Crete, and refuse.
If your petition has no effect, I sympathise with the 5,000 affected, If it does change the decision, I can only pray for the 595,000 other Cretans who will suffer if your confidence in the Cretan economy is unfounded.
Why should I care anyway, I will be fine when there is mass unemployment here and tomatoes may be even cheaper! The only problem is that I do care!
Posted 17 September 2006 - 01:04 PM
I have considered editing it, but feel that if I remove this reference it will detract from my argument.
I sincerely apologise now to whoever it was who made the original post. If the moderator decides to to delete it or edit it I fully understand and accept his decision.
In the several posts I have made on this subject I have expressed my honest opinions (and have no more points to make) so this is my last post on the subject.
Thank you for giving me the oportunity to give "the other point of view".