Jump to content


Photo

Containerharbour In Timbaki, Part 1


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
285 replies to this topic

#81 Wim

Wim

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,141 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Hague Netherlands

Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:11 PM

Great initiative Ton!

Of course I signed ;)
True is that adage: "He who yields to rule by wooden heads, becomes himself a fool."

#82 Pam

Pam

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 378 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Neo Chorio, Crete

Posted 23 August 2006 - 04:58 PM

One more! I also reviewed the people who have signed and their comments, interesting - people from all over Europe and possibly beyond.

Ton do let us know if there's anything more we can do.

Pam & Bob

#83 emily

emily

    Traveler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 92 posts

Posted 24 August 2006 - 02:46 PM

Me too, added my name, would hate to see the island blighted!!

#84 janm

janm

    Tourist

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts

Posted 24 August 2006 - 03:39 PM

I've added my name and also posted a link on the Plakias forum.
Jan

#85 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:35 PM

I recently posted this on another forum:

I have very mixed feelings on this. (just to stir it up a bit!).

I would be most upset if a guest in my house told me what to do. I am a guest of the Greek islanders, is it right that I should tell them what to do?

I have visited the petition, but not voted, and read all the comments. Bearing in mind the recent behavior of British tourists, is it really helpfull for them/us to say they/we will not come back if this project goes ahead. I would have thought that the government may well want them not to come back. (I am refering to the recent "beating up" of a female doctor by a group of British girls and other unacceptable behaviour).

Lastly, Crete needs and wants to progress in the modern world. It cannot stay locked in a time warp because it looks pretty and "foreigners" (including me?)want it to stay that way. I want the Cretans to prosper and enjoy a higher standard of living. If the democratically elected government thinks that a container port is the way to achieve this then it should go ahead as this is what democracy is all about. (Maybe)

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#86 SuzyCreamcheese

SuzyCreamcheese

    Traveler

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 36 posts

Posted 26 August 2006 - 02:52 PM

Stirring up things is what makes a discussion board lively Retired in Crete. ;)

Nevertheless. As I understand, it would be a trading agreement with China. I am no expert and obtain my information from news, newspaper etc., but what Chinas input is in 'port activities' that is something Antwerp Port has already been experiencing. Not much good I am afraid -> dubious trade.

Part of the now still beautiful South coast would become industrial area for masses of containers, warehouses, and things like that, with a large impact for the local people and for tourism.
Like you I am puzzled with the argument whether I may/may not say what is good for the local population and of course I can easily speak because I have work and I live a rather prosperous life.

On the other hand Crete also depends largely on tourism (which not always has such good influence, I know it :P ) but I wonder what would be the impact on it if the containerplans come true. Moreover it seems to me that Greek people (and I with them) doubt tehmselves whether Crete and its population will prosper much by this evolution. I guess Chinese business people would be the major beneficiaries. ;)

Now, not only did I sign the petition but forwarded it to friends and acquaintances. One of them, who is working at a shipping company was telling me that -knowing this kind of business- a container harbour in Crete seems to be pure science fiction in his opinion.

I for one hope he is right ! ;)
time isn't money, it's precious !

#87 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:08 PM

A few further thoughts:

The effects on tourism, in overall terms, of the proposed container port will be minimal. Crete has some 3 million tourist visitors a year, most of these stay on the north coast and the majority do not leave their chosen resort. The location of the proposed terminal, although beautiful, is not a main tourist area. Let us be wildly optimistic and say that 30,000 people visit the area (to keep the maths simple). Because of the lack of tourist facilities, only half will spend any money, the rest will simply admire the view, lie on the beach, and move on. The nett effect of losing these 30,000 visitors will be to reduce the total visitors to Crete by 1%. As half of these missing visitors spend nothing in the area the effects on the Cretan economy will be even less. The continuing security scare and peoples reluctance to fly will have a bigger effect! If the tourists lost by the development could be enticed to the undeveloped South East coast they would find new areas of equal appeal.

The current Cretan economy, which exists on tourism in the summer and olive picking in the winter, is, in my opinion, unsustainable in the long term. Visitor numbers for the last 3 years have been almost static and with the emergence of new holiday destinations around the world how long will it be before the numbers decline? The economy is also not under Cretan or Greek control. Every year, in meeting rooms round the world, the major tour operators decide the fate of the Cretan economy for the next year. Their decisions on how much brochure space to devote to Crete will materially affect every Cretan family. These peoples power is enormous; they can make or break the Island. Their ability to do this must be reduced. The government realise this which is why they are proposing this sort of diversification.

I do realise that the results of this can be catastrophic for a minority of people but for the benefit of Crete and Greece as a whole the government think this development is urgently required.

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#88 DaveW.

DaveW.

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 451 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Wales

Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:20 PM

As I understand it, the area of Timbaki is one of the main agricultural areas of Crete, and if these container
warehouses are to take over what would happen to the agricultural economy? Would Cretans then have to endure those tomatoes that are reared under glass in Holland?
If you look like your passport picture....you probably need the holiday!

#89 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 26 August 2006 - 11:38 PM

You could always eat the tomatoes from Ierapetra of which there is a glut because, as I understand it, the growers have not complied with some EC directive and are not allowed to export them this year as they have done in the past

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#90 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 26 August 2006 - 11:53 PM

I have just read this on the dangers of relying on tourism.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ure/5288092.stm


John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#91 Wim

Wim

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,141 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Hague Netherlands

Posted 28 August 2006 - 03:50 PM

Here's the whole message. It seems I didn't finish within the time settled by Yannis.


Following strong opposition from the local people in Timbaki and the sourounding villages the Minister Mr. Kefalogiannis is willing to transfer the port to other location according to the Greek article below. It seems that the government is finally getting the message. 'No container port in Timbaki' Thank you very much!!



This is a quote from one of Ton's postings in this topic. It shows that the people of Tymbaki and the surrounding area are "not amused".
And since Ton and also Yannis are the best informed members of this forum I think we can rely on their observations.

As far as the remarks concern about our "interference" in the politics of Greece I'm afraid I will simply disagree with that opinion. Greece is a member of the European Union and hence a lot of financial assistance has/will not only be(en) put in extending their harbours (thats why the idea of Tymbaki harbour was born) but alos in environmental projects.

One of these projects was the protection of the beaches of Kommos as beeing the breeding ground of the protected caretta caretta turtle (loggerhead sea turtle).
This beach will be totally destroyed if this unholy plan would succeed. Also the pollution of the sea by one oil "leaking" container ship or worse, a collision, would mean a disaster

So here are some reasons why "we" the people of the European Community are not even allowed but obliged to raise our voice and sign this petition. After all it's "our" Euro we're talking about aswell as "our" environment and "our" Crete. Even though sometimes I think that "we" the people that love Crete and want it to prosper in a healty way seem to be more concerned then the Cretans themselves.

Be/stay critical :rolleyes:

Attached Files


True is that adage: "He who yields to rule by wooden heads, becomes himself a fool."

#92 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 29 August 2006 - 02:49 AM

Wim,

Thank you so much for your response. I think that we could “discuss” this for a long time, it would be better if we could do it over a drink, but we do not have that facility.

Dare I question how well you read what I said?

Quote from your post:
“This is a quote from one of Ton's postings in this topic. It shows that the people of Tymbaki and the surrounding area are "not amused".

In my post I said:
“I do realise that the results of this can be catastrophic for a minority of people but for the benefit of Crete and Greece as a whole the government think this development is urgently required.”

Another Quote:
“And since Ton and also Yannis are the best informed members of this forum I think we can rely on their observations.”

Maybe! Since I do not know how this will affect them personally I cannot judge their impartiality. I do know that they are both involved in this website which states “The Travel Guide about Real Crete”. It is a tourist guide to Crete. As this project will affect tourism their views will be slanted to protect tourism. We also have to remember that the “best informed” of the time told Columbus that the world was flat. The “best informed” said that to run a mile in under 4 mins was beyond the physical powers of man. I could give many more examples. Are you saying that as they are “the best informed” no other opinion is allowed?

Another Quote
“As far as the remarks concern about our "interference" in the politics of Greece I'm afraid I will simply disagree with that opinion.”

I would be first to defend your right to disagree! However, I made no remarks about this, I simply asked the question “I am a guest of the Greek islanders, is it right that I should tell them what to do?” If you say that the answer to this is “Yes” then fine, thanks for answering me.

As you rightly say, Greece is part of the European Union but Greece, like the rest of the Union, is a democracy. The Greek people voted for the current government which wants this project to go ahead (for the reasons outlined in my posts). The E U is also a democracy (sort of, could start another thread about that!) If you think that Greece is reneging on promises to protect wildlife, or anything else you do not like, your protests should be directed to your Euro MP. This is the way democracy works.

You make no comments about the current Cretan economy and the future, or lack of a future, for the tourist industry. How will you protect the Cretan economy? You say that you want Crete to prosper in a healthy way – how would you suggest this is achieved?

The Greek people have voted, the democratically elected government has decided, the EU has offered their backing. Let the bulldozers roll!!!

John

(Stay critical – you bet!!!)
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#93 Wim

Wim

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1,141 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Hague Netherlands

Posted 29 August 2006 - 12:30 PM

Hi John,

I was not adressing you, but gave my opinion about this matter as I also did in previous postings in this forum and as comments in the Crete Gazette.

We could easily discuss this all till kingdom comes but, as you wrote, it would do better while drinking a nice tsipouro. But even then, I'm afraid, we would'nt come up with a solution that fits Crete, perhaps only with a hangover.... B)
It'll take about 3 years for me to retire to Crete and this will give some time to abide. Problem is that I want to retire somewhere along the coast of Messara Colpa.....

In the meantime the Cretans that do care and know about pro's and con's, especially concerning the net profits for Crete, have started an action committee to prevent this harbour thing to happen. At the other hand there also seem to be a lot of Cretans who don't care about it at all...

So I have come to the conclusion that if democracy (whatever that is) prevails, another pristine part of Crete will disappear for ever.

This is my last comment concerning this topic. I don't want to go on and on and on and on...

I rest my case :rolleyes:
True is that adage: "He who yields to rule by wooden heads, becomes himself a fool."

#94 Ton

Ton

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts

Posted 10 September 2006 - 04:35 PM

The latest:

The mayor of Timbaki sent recently a letter to Mr. Kefalogiannis complaining that despite his previous efforts there is no communication from the ministry in regards to the plans of the container port in Timbaki. He is emphasizing to the ministry that without the participation and the involvment in a project of the municipality of Timbaki and its citizens no planning can be made. In the mean time several eco groups are reacting to the creation of a container port in Timbaki due to the ecological destruction of the area.

Now answering John's comments I would like to know how he would feel, if for the shake of Democracy and the country someone decides to place an industrial garbage processor next to his house. As for Democracy in Europe? Are we kiding ourselves? The only real country with democracy in Europe is Switzerland where the citizens vote for every little issue. The others are a Greek Tragedy. They are running from Anarchy to dictatorship. The European beuracrats are only good for expensive dinners and bla bla. No action and no style and no clear position in things which matter. Yes just follow the steps of the big brother. Its a little bit like Lucky Luke and the brothers Dalton. hahahahaha. Democracy?

#95 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 15 September 2006 - 02:02 AM

Ton,

Strange that you should ask how I would feel if the government decided to build something objectionable next to my house as I am in exactly that position. I live on the outskirts of a village that has existed since Minoan times. The powers that be have decided that an extension to the E17 will pass within 100 meters or so of the village and because I have been unable to find out the exact route, they may want my house or it will pass close by. They are currently dynamiting a tunnel through the mountain.

I have mixed feelings. The village is dieing as the young are going to large towns or Athens to find work. I would guess that about one quarter of the houses are empty. I want the people of the area to prosper and the young to return. If the road will do this, and it is right next to my house I will move, not happily, but I will accept that it is required for the common good of the people of Crete. I actually doubt the necessity of a new road as, by English standards, there is little traffic on the old one.

I have already commented on democracy and the EU. I suggested that we could start a new thread to discuss it, or lack of it. In broad terms, I agree with what you say, but it is the only system we have and so you have to work within it.

It is all too easy to protest against something, but very difficult to think of an alternative solution to the problems with the Cretan economy as I outlined in my post. If and when the protesters do this, they will have my total support.

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#96 Ton

Ton

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts

Posted 15 September 2006 - 03:17 PM

There is nothing wrong with the Cretan Economy AND CERTAINLY <CRETE DOES NOT NEED AN INDUSTRIAL PORT IN THE SOUTH WHICH WILL DESTROY ITS TOURIST BUSINESS AND Consequently ITS MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME. As a matter of fact Cretan papers yesterday reported that Heraklion is one of the richest provinces in Greece from the amount of money people stuck up in the banks (if one can believe this!!) They also reported that Greek inflation is running 3.5%. Is there anyone I mean anyone who could believe this number? Unfortunatelly Yes... I am afraid there are thousands who watch all day soap operas and TV adverts to endertain themselves who will also believe about weapons of mass destruction and Martians landing on earth.. hahahahaah.!!! Also John what u say sounds nice but a road going outside your house will not degrade your house. In many cases homes close to a major road appreciate in value. You should not believe what the news papers are reporting about the prosperity such a port would bring to the area of Messara. The truth is far beyond our imagination. The deals of this magnitude involve few people who will profit on the account of the environment and misfortunes of thousands of other people of this area. Fortunately we do not live in Cuba or China and we still have our voices to protest don't we? I suggest that you go to www.ecocrete.gr and sign the petition against the construction of this port.

#97 Pam

Pam

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 378 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Neo Chorio, Crete

Posted 15 September 2006 - 05:03 PM

Ton, totally agree with you and as a Cretan and part-time resident of the area, I think you should make your views known vociferously. One thing, I would be interested to know - what is the general feeling of the local residents - are they generally against or not? From our discussions back last May I got the feeling that most were against, though as everywhere I am sure many are apathetic and won't actually do anything.

Pam & Bob

#98 Ton

Ton

    Crete Explorer

  • Club Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 365 posts

Posted 15 September 2006 - 05:35 PM

Well Pam the majority of the people around the area started to realize that if that port becomes a reality they might be loosing in the future their friendly tourist customers who contribute to their annual income, besides the income they have from the olive oil. One has to realize that this area of Crete in the 60's was extremely poor until the influx of tourism in the 70's. Now the people in Timbaki they don't depend on tourism so much, so they are more favourable to this idea since they also believe to the promisses of Kefalogiannis and company. In general the negative feeling is higher than the positive between the locals, at least this is what I believe!!!

#99 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 17 September 2006 - 12:33 AM

Ton

If you believe that the Cretan economy is "fine" now and will stay that way for the next 20 years and that the tourist will keep on comming here then who am I to argue/debate with you. I would defend your right to hold this view.

I am retired, I don't have to find work, but the Cretans do, and for them I am deeply concerned. If/when the tourists stop visiting, and all the predictions are that they will, the Islands economy will return to 1950, as it was before they came. Mass poverty will follow as there will be little work apart from low paid agricultural employment. The contributor who was only worried that he wouln't be able to buy decent tomatoes when he is on holiday will be very happy. What would appear to be his worst nightmare will not happen! This, to me, is a sad indication of how fickle tourists can be, they have little thought for the people of the countries they visit, they only care about the price of alchohol, the cost of cigarettes and will it be warm & sunny. Please read other forums, they complain that they cannot get English style fish & chips (deep frozen cod, dipped in one week old batter and deep fried). They do not care that they can get wonderful fresh fish here because the types available are not familiar to them and they are served with their heads on. A practice which most British do not like. These statements may not apply to the members of this forum, but they do apply to tourists in general.

I have already stated that when you, or any other "protester", can provide alternative plans to ensure the continued prosperity of the Cretan people I will be more than happy to sign the petition. Until then I have to side with the government, who realise the bleak future facing Crete, and refuse.

If your petition has no effect, I sympathise with the 5,000 affected, If it does change the decision, I can only pray for the 595,000 other Cretans who will suffer if your confidence in the Cretan economy is unfounded.

Why should I care anyway, I will be fine when there is mass unemployment here and tomatoes may be even cheaper! The only problem is that I do care!

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.

#100 Retired in Crete

Retired in Crete

    Crete Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 176 posts

Posted 17 September 2006 - 01:04 PM

I have just re-read my post above and now realise, with hindsight, it could be deemed offensive to another member of the forum.

I have considered editing it, but feel that if I remove this reference it will detract from my argument.

I sincerely apologise now to whoever it was who made the original post. If the moderator decides to to delete it or edit it I fully understand and accept his decision.

In the several posts I have made on this subject I have expressed my honest opinions (and have no more points to make) so this is my last post on the subject.

Thank you for giving me the oportunity to give "the other point of view".

John
Cornwall - Great at any time of the year.